when i was at my former church that i found as an adult (not the lame childhood church) i met so many wonderful people who had been raised in our faith. i always wished i'd come from one of the families like theirs because they seemed so grounded and peaceful--not all insecure like me. but there was one woman i knew whose family was from the same faith and boy was it screwed up! and while i always liked her she had tons of drama and problems. most of us with lots of problems had come from secular familes. then, on the message board i used to be on before PC there were a whole lot of people who had come from backgrounds like this woman's. yikes! so, i guess like anything else if it's healthy it is great but if it's unhealthy watch out. spiritual abuse is really nasty. but spiritual neglect isn't any better, imo...but of course you can't force spirituality on anyone.


blue, i think the "not feeling good" can be largely a result of our dysfunctional upbringings. i think that core of shame that you and tree and i and so many others feel inside happens because of abuse. i do believe there is a difference between shame and guilt. guilt is legitimate when we've done something we know is wrong like lie, steal, etc. if people do these things and have no sense of guilt about it then i do think that is a problem. but shame is more about our sense of worth. no one should ever have to struggle with feeling worthless or dirty or unloveable. yet many of us do.

you know, at some point i do want to take a comparative religion course. i always think it is good to understand more where others are at even if we are coming from a different place.

this is really weird that you would say this, blue. after my lame childhood church, where i also had one bad spiritual experience, i didn't go back for years because fortunately my mom said we didn't have to go when we got a bit older. years later i happened to meet a girl in summer school from another town and she was going to be in a dance performance at that church. i mentioned it to my mom since i love dance and we decided to go. so, after not having been at this church for years i ended up having this big spiritual experience when i went to see my friend dance. it's hard to describe but all of a sudden it was like i sensed God's presence very strongly and he spoke to me. i had certainly never had anything like that happen before. i couldn't see anything and the voice wasn't audible but it was unmistakeable. i'm not sure if i remember the exact word but i think they were "this is where you belong". i wished i'd written the exact words down but that was certainly the meaning of what i'd heard. if i hadn't been with my mom who never cries i would have burst out crying. it was a pretty intense experience. now, i knew God wasn't referring to that particular neighborhood church as it was still boring as ever but to his larger church and to Him. i mean, God could have said something totally different that would have been just as meaningful but it's weird that you would mention what you did and that is just what God said to me. honestly, i can't say i was looking for a home or belonging but that is just what happened. shortly after that i did join a church group that one of my friends was involved in. it all sort of happened naturally and i felt almost propelled along. while it certainly hasn't always been an easy journey since then, and i drifted away for many years since i didn't really get rooted in it, i know what i had happen was real. since getting more grounded in my faith i've had many other spiritual experiences. in a way i guess they keep me faithful when it gets rough. there is much more to being spiritual than these experiences but for me they have been important. i'm still waiting for the more important things like the peace, joy and love although like you i get glimpses of them. how our spirituality changes us is of course also a big part of it. if we don't become more whole and loving then i tend to think it's not working. if there isn't real life change, even when happening slowly, then i think what is the point?

anyway, all that to say maybe it just hasn't been the right timing yet for you or you haven't hit upon it yet. don't give up the search girl until you really know you've found what you are seeking. i think what you are seeking is good and true. maybe there are some rocks you haven't looked under yet. there were many people at my old church, the good one, who have similar stories to yours of searching for many years in different religions and spiritualities before finding their spiritual home. i'm not at all big on religion per se and it is certainly fraught with problems, but i know for me i need some sort of community to practice with. i tend to prefer them to be very low key and without too much structure. the way i describe my old church, the good one, is that most of the pastors either surfed or skated. it also felt a lot like a big 12-step meeting.

i tend to think the sense of belonging and home you mentioned, which i later did become aware of desiring, is related to both family and God. the way i view it is that our families, when healthy, are supposed to be pictures of a healthy spiritual relationship with God and our spiritual family. i'm sure i don't totally understand all this and somehow there isn't a clear separation between the natural/physical and the spiritual but that is sort of how i understand it so far.

i definitely understand your disappointment with religion. a lot of it is useless at best and toxic at worst. keeping things simple is very important to me as well. i kind of like the simplicity that the quakers have. while my current church isn't quaker it does have some quaker roots which i really like. too many times people get caught up in pointless arguments about religion and come up with all kinds of man-made rules on top of the basic ones. while we obviously can't just do whatever we want in life at the expense of others sometimes either too many rules are added on or too heavy a hand is used. i have visited churches were there is just too much emphasis on what we do wrong and that loads people with undue guilt. for those of us from dysfunctional homes where we were constantly being blamed for just breathing that can do a lot of damage and make us feel wrong for every little thing. i think we do need some direction though so it isn't a total free-for-all. with the multitude of religious and spiritual options available these days it is definitely quite confusing figuring out which end is up and who is talking out of their *****.

much love to you blue.