Jenkins, I don't blame you for having an issue with it. That's why I said I'm *tempted* to say it. I don't actually say it. It has crossed my mind (automated response; it's what my mother would say) but I've recognized the inconsistency in it, and shut it off. I have problems too when women want it both ways, and I see "give me equal employment opportunity, but give up your seat to me" as wanting it both ways.

I said this on another thread, but then I started this general discussion so as not to hijack. I didn't go into detail there. I will here. I think the reason this is on my mind is that something happened on another site that peeves me off just a little bit. It's a humor page. Someone posted a joke that was obviously sexist, trying to be funny. Specifically, it was a short parody of a fairy tale, in which the prince proposed marriage, the princess said no, and the prince lived happily ever after, because he was free to go hunting and fishing, play poker with the boys, and fart whenever he wanted to. "Men are better off and happier without women" is the obvious punch line.

Several women, including myself, pointed out that the situation might be advantageous to the princess as well. I added the line, "And the princess found that her castle was always clean, and every time she put something away, it was still there the next time she looked for it." Other women talked about the princess's toilet seat always being down, or her getting to watch chick flicks any time she felt like it, and one pointed out that she *also* could fart whenever she wanted to.

Which prompted the comment, "Wow, that sure brought out a lot of angry b...ches."

Whoa. If we had gotten upset, we would have been accused of being too emotional and not having a sense of humor. So we joke back in the same spirit as the man who started it, and that makes us "angry b...ches"? Exactly what were we supposed to do?

Personally, I don't find anti-marriage humor funny, and I'm glad to say, neither does my husband. He has never made jokes like, "There are three rings involved in marriage. The engagement ring, the wedding ring, and the suffer-ring." If he did, I'd be mad at him, but he won't, because he doesn't like it either, thank God.

Now, about special courtesy toward women, I guess I just don't see the logic in it. Why should a woman get respect that a man does not? Why should she eat first? (Unless she's diabetic and her blood sugar is dropping, in which case *that,* not her gender, would determine that she eats first. Same thing if it's a diabetic man.) And traditions like standing up when a woman enters or leaves the room, the man walking on the outside edge of the sidewalk, tipping your hat to the lady, I think make even less sense. I don't see the reason, and one thing I have little patience for is a "because that's the way it's done" kind of answer.

I believe courtesy should apply equally to both sexes. That is to say, I think a young, healthy person should give up a seat for somebody who is older and/or disabled, but I don't think a man should automatically be required give up a seat for an equally young and healthy woman. I say "ma'am" and "sir," and I call people "Mr." or "Miss/Mrs." unless they specifically tell me to use their first names. Oh, yes, I believe in manners.

No argument either about the Bible. I'm a Christian. It's too bad that people have misused those verses about women being submissive to their husbands, and made women second class citizens. There was a time when women couldn't even own property. Whatever she had was considered her father's until she got married, at which time it became her husband's, and he could do with it what he wanted.

Thanks for joining in the discussion. I hope to hear many points of view.