> Another factor here is that theorists and therapists tend to present the very simply A causes B causes C, etc. formula to clients because it's assumed that this is a more effective way of getting the point across, and that most people have little or no interest in exploring the ambiguos landscape of cognition/affect/physiology/behavior relationships. (And, I think the total lack of interest shown by other members to our discussion illustrates this nicely.)
Yes. Part of the 'dumbing down' of the mentally ill perhaps... perhaps... I'm all for simplification if it ASSISTS with understanding. But the trouble is that the simplification is fairly grotesque in the sense that it distorts things into falsehoods. But if it helps... Well... That is probably justified (to a certain extent) on pragmatic grounds. But... My problem comes when therapists deny the clients phenomenology because the phenomenology is ruled out by their grotesque simplification of a theory...
But... Yes... Theory interests me more than most...
Probably because... My phenomenology... Seems to be a direct counter-example to their theory. And while they can disregard my phenomenology (not having direct access to it and all) I am not so easily convinced that it is in error...
> Yes, but the 95-98% of people who do not fear airplane crashes have had such vicarious experiences as well. What makes me different? That's the really interesting question.
Yes. That is an interesting question...
> (I'm not saying CBT offers the definitive answer, just that it offers one that makes sense.)
What is the CBT answer? Because you endorse some 'irrational' belief or other? How is this an explanation? Doesn't it shuffle it back one step... Why do I endorse this 'irrational' belief whereas others do not?
>>Whats with the urge to have yourself described as 'irrational'?
> No urge at all. In fact, I never called myself irrational. I said that I had an irrational fear.
Why is your fear irrational?
> Big difference. In fact, it illustrates a certain cognitive distortion quite nicely. I recognize that I have an irrational fear, but if I made the jump to "I'm an irrational person" I would feel much, much worse about myself.
Hmm. But what is an irrational person if it is not a person who is inclined to irrational beliefs / feelings / behavings?
Just like... What is a kind person if it is not a person who is inclined to behave kindly towards others?
Why am I irrational if I conclude I am an 'irrational' person in the former case, yet I am a psychologically healthy person if I conclude I am a kind person in the latter case?
Is it the reasoning (rational vs irrational) that is different?
I don't think so...
> Flooding and graduate exposure for sure.
Yes. I could be wrong... But I think that is the lay of the empirical land...
> A good CBT therapist would recommend them too--hence the 'B' in CBT.
Yes. Though not in strict 'cognitive therapy'
> But how do these techniques work?
Heightened physiological arousal (ANS activity) is thought to be a requisite for an emotional state. So... In flooding you are confronted directly with what you are afraid of. Eventually... Your ANS 'poops out' which is to say your body gets tired and you don't have heightened ANS activity. One cannot be in an intense state of distress indefinately. And when the body poops out eventually... The fear is extinguished.
These techniques work with animals hence we do not need to appeal to cognition to explain how they work...
> The work with acceptance is really interesting. I've done a little reading, but I have to catch up.
Yeah. I haven't read much. I've read Linehans treatment manual for borderline personality disorder but that is round about it...
[on a tangent if one was able to post a link to amazon books via this site then this site would make... I think it is 10% of the price of the book if a poster was to buy the book via the link at no added cost to the poster. if posters here made an effort to buy their amazon books via links from this site then it could be a profitable way of making some money for the emergency fund thingimie at no additional cost to the posters here. i think you contact amazon for details on that...]
> Since most people come to therapy because they "feel bad" and they don't want to feel bad anymore, I think the idea of acceptance would be a tough sell--then again, there's an awful lot about this concept that I don't understand so I could be looking at it all wrong.
well... if you are able to accept something... acceptance is change. because if you are able to accept something... then you aren't distressed by it.
> For what it's worth, my own view of things is that thoughts, feelings, behavior, and physiology are all part of an interdependent and interacting system and that when one changes, it necessarily changes the others.
Though of course... You can think through a number of thoughts... Logical axioms or something... Without that leading to a change in ones emotional or physiological state. But yes... There are complex interactions between these things... The hard part comes with... Attempting to specify the nature of their interaction in a little more depth. And along the way... Avoiding falsehoods....
> From a biological standpoint, I don't think it matters much what order they come in.
Well... It matters if you want to know...
> What matters is how people experience these elements phenomenologically.
Yes... Though whether the way things seem to us to be actually maps on to the way things really are is a legitimate question. I just think... That if one wants to deny veridicality of phenomenology... Then one should be particularly careful to check that the theory is plausible and adequate before doing so...
> It seems weird to me that when a person seeks treatment with a mental health professional, the most important factor in what kind of treatment they'll receive isn't the client's preference, the client's personality or temperament, isn't even the kind of problem the client is having...it's the approach embraced by the therapist. (Kind of like if I went to my doctor with a complaint about my back and hips and he responded by examining my ears because his training was in ear, nose, and throat!) Not very "client-centered" methinks.
Yes.
Because... People want to (perhaps even need to) believe their way is the legitimate way / the appropriate way / the best way / the empirically validated way / whatever...
Psychologists
Psychiatrists
Councellors
Tend to each think their way is the best way...
(ego defence?)
And that is to say nothing of the rivalries between sub-fields...
They are slaves to their psychology just as much as we are...
And they may lack awareness...
Display 'irrational' thinking just as much as we do
Though...
If everybody thinks irrationally at times...
What sense is there in calling ours irrational?
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