Another long one, for those who are interested.
For some reason the font formatting comes over when I use my work computer... There are three emails in this one, mine, which I sent last night (black font), his response (red font), and my response (blue font). Hope that makes sense.
I haven't sent this latest reply (blue font) yet and I'm not sure I should. I'm wondering if I should soften up my words, be a little more humble, as I know he's hurting right now... I've really been working on that since I know I did cause him more hurt than I can imagine.
Tsol, I'm gonna respond to your latest message a little later. I didn't forget.
Quote:
From: Him
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:39 AM
To: Me
Subject: RE: Counseling #2
I'll start with how counseling went today. It was good. He had me pick my most important items from my pros list and most important items from my cons list. He said a lot of women would give a limb to have a man who had some of the items on my pros list. We talked about those things for a while. We talked about "problems-based" conversations vs. "solutions-based" conversations. For example, we used to talk about an issue that bothered you: the amount of time I spend on the computer (problems-based conversation). However, we never really sat down and said, okay, here's what we're going to do about it (solutions-based conversation). What ended up happening was I tried to make a change without mentioning it to you, you didn't notice, I got frustrated, you were already frustrated. It would have been better to say from the start, okay, I'll limit my time to 30 minutes a day, or, I will only use the computer after Oliver's gone to bed, or during a certain time period, or whatever. He said something we could work on in counseling would be how to shift from problems-based communication to solutions-based communication. We talked a little about that story you wrote, and why it bothered me so much. He asked if you were the object of my sexual fantasies 100% of the time and I said no, but that's different, so we explored how it's different. What came up was that you used words for the girl in the story that you rarely used for me... he said to tell you that you could tell me I'm beautiful more often. We also got into, a little bit, my promiscuity in the past. I told him about the book I'm reading and what I'm getting out of it. He asked why I thought I behaved like that and I told him: (1) feminism (they (men) can do it, why can't I?), (2) insecurity (i.e. needed to feel wanted, desired, etc.), (3) exploration. This was more talking about the past than this recent episode. We talked some about how those reasons may have translated to the recent episode. I began to explain how I thought I'd changed, how I thought I had learned that lesson. He said there was a lot of pain behind my eyes when I said that. I suppose he's right. He also said I have a good poker face, which, with him, I'm sure I do. Umm, so that's the big stuff, I think, the big stuff I want to tell you about anyway.
Thank you, that is all I wanted from you in terms of the computer. I wanted you to at least wait until Oliver went to bed since he rarely saw you. Well, I suppose I wanted more. I wanted you to not get so mad or hurt with me for falling asleep at 9:30 or 10pm. A solution I have for that is perhaps get on your computer every other night or something. A night to just be with me after Oliver goes to bed rotated with a night on the computer.
I can say your beautiful and other sentiments easier in written form than spoken form. I did write you letters often, if not daily, and I regularly ended them with endearments or sentiments. I recall a few times where I wrote a note just to tell you how happy you made me.
You were/are very good at saying you love me, and certain other endearments/sentiments. However, you are not very good at just complementing me, my looks, my accomplishments, my work or my efforts. Usually, if you tell me I’m beautiful, you say it in relation to what I’m wearing, which is good, but I’d like to know you think I’m beautiful no matter what I’m wearing, or nothing at all...
I suppose I felt that way from you too, I felt that you didn't so much love me as you more likely needed me to act as a maid and nanny.
I’m sorry I made you feel that way. That is not how I felt.
However, when we talk about these sort of topics I get upset now that you betrayed my love and devotion to you. That is all I can say about that, Gina, and hope it doesn't upset or depress you into rage or loathing towards me.
When I get upset by your emails, it is not rage or loathing that I feel. It is pain and despair. Anger is not an emotion I feel towards you much these days.
I have thought about your "feminism" reason and it just baffles me. It baffles me because you use that as an excuse. Men can't just sleep around and not hear negative about it. Sure it does happen but a man doesn't give up as much as a woman. The image of a woman is historically kinder and sweeter than of man.
I get upset that woman can go into nearly any bar or public area and pick a guy to screw while a guy like me has to put so much effort into getting a girlfriend. Being a woman has its advantages (ultimately picking from a herd of guys for a night or longer without much effort) and being a man has its advantages (being picked by a girl for a night or longer of sex/screwing/etc..) This feminism kick women get on is bogus in my mind. If I slept with a different girl a night or even orally performed on a different girl as one night stands I would get flack from people. Sure there are guys who go out and "rack numbers" and at times I wonder to myself why I can't be like that but I don't use it as a tool to exploit my body. I realize I have more self-respect than those guys.
Let’s be clear: I am not making excuses. I’m sorry if you misunderstood what I was trying to get at in my explanation. First off, I am not trying to justify my behavior, I am only trying to understand it. I’m not saying that they were good reasons or that they even made sense, but they were my reasons and I’m trying to just comprehend what was going through my mind. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to talk me out of them or argue their validity. Really, it’s irrelevant whether they were valid reasons or not, if I believed them at the time. If I am going to stop the behavior, I have to be able to truly understand it. Getting to the root of the justifications that were going through my head at the time is part of understanding the behavior, no matter how silly those justifications may seem to you. Also, like I said before, they were not really my justifications or reasons for the cheating, only the long-past behavior that I’m also trying to understand as a step in this process.*
I will agree that insecurity is an accurate point for your wanton ways. I am in no position to go into detail about it though. As for exploration, if that is truly in you and I am not able to satisfy than we do need to break up. That is why I have separated from you now; so you can get exploration out of you. Unless it is like traveling, if so it will never grow out of you. Traveling is an itch that isn't curable. If your need to sleep with or perform on different guys is an itch so to say you may be diagnosed with a disorder: nymphomania. That isn't meant to be cutting or belittling, Gina, it is a legitimate concern I have when considering the future of our relationship.
Again, those reasons I listed didn’t really have much to do with the cheating, only with my behavior in high school/early college. Exploration was a part of it, you did it too, everyone does in their own way. I don’t really feel the need to explore anymore, just trying to understand past behavior. Just because you say something like “this isn’t meant to be cutting or belittling” doesn’t mean it isn’t. It’s like when people say “no offense” before they say something offensive, as though they think it’s some magic pill that will stop people getting mad at them.
What "pain" do you mean?
The disappointment I feel in myself because after I had Oliver and over the last 5 years, I truly thought I had changed those behaviors and those days were over. I thought I had learned my lesson. Then I blew all those beliefs out of the water with the cheating. I feel I have betrayed myself as well as you. Re-read those sentences and see if it makes sense; I thought it was pretty clear.*
Are you regretful for having a boyfriend? Of course not. Do you prefer to be free to date or have one night stands? Absolutely not. I am confused about this "pain behind (your) eyes".I think you need to read what I write more carefully before you start in on this type of conjecture.*
I. From 7/29 email "Re: My rebuttal with anger issued at the end":
- How do you feel after I explained my statement that it's "unfair that I don't have my mom"? Are you still angry about this? I am not angry. I just get the impression-when you mention it numerous times-that you honestly held contempt towards for having a mom. That is something I can not control and it honestly left me divided between you and my mom. If you hate me for having a mom than I can not be with you. You can hate my mom but not hate me for having one still.
This is a problem. I do not hate you for having a mom, nor do I feel contempt towards you. (Also, I don’t hate her. Mostly I am just hurt by her.) I explained that. It is me grieving. You cannot pick and choose which grief you are going to support me in. Well, I suppose you can, but it’s not right. It’s easy to hold and hug me when I’m crying because my mom loved football, but as soon as it’s something that is remotely difficult or offensive to you, you snatch that support right off the table and start making it about you.*- What did you think about the sacrifices I listed that I've made for you? Do you think it's not possible that we've both made sacrifices in regards to your living here? We did, I suppose. I just looked at it as you needed me there more than you wanted me. It becomes difficult to see the sacrifices you made when you have friends and family there, money to spend, job security, and the ability to survive there without me. I know you moved there to be nearer your mom, I moved there to be closer to you so I did see my sacrifices more than I saw yours.
I am proving to myself and you and everyone else right now that I do not need you or anyone here to help me with Oliver or the house or anything else. I’m doing it all on my own and it’s working out just fine. Sure, I have a lot less free time, but, I’m holding my own. Even so, I still want you here. I hope that helps you believe that I am in this for love, not need. I can see how you think you made more sacrifices; however, you can’t get on me for not being appreciative when you discount the sacrifices I made because they’re not as ”good” as yours or weren’t as “hard” as yours to make or whatever. You did make the decision to come here. You have to own that and not put it all on me. It’s not my fault you couldn’t find a job. Who knows, you may have had just as hard of a time anywhere you went. Maybe you would have been broke in Atlanta or Korea or Alaska too. Then it wouldn’t have been my fault.*- Do you still think I have blamed you for my actions? I don't know what to think in terms of this. I just ask myself over and over what I did to deserve this. In a sense you admitted above (see feminism reason) that I am partially to blame for your actions. Not directly but in a sense because I am a guy. I have wondered if you did it to test me and my words. I have wondered if you did it because you hate me or you feel you are above me thus you are free to hurt me. It is an action that I am torn up about and I am hoping that time heals it.
Again, the reasons I listed above were not reasons for my cheating; they were reasons for prior behavior. I am trying to relate that to the cheating, but not trying to excuse or justify the behavior or discount your pain. I understand, mostly from people I’ve talked to, that your mind, in its pain, will grasp at straws to understand why. I am trying to give you the real answer. Know for now that it was not because I hate you or because I felt I was above you or because I wanted to hurt you or because I was testing you. I, too, hope that time will heal your wounds, whether or not we get back together. I also hope I am able (and you will let me, where possible) to help time do its job.- How did you feel when I said that you have emotional issues? I am indifferent about that. I know I have emotional issues. I have looked down a barrel of a gun and changed my mind. I tear up when my friends and family call or write me letters. I feel as though I need to help people but have little interest in the World at large. I feel I need to help others primarily because I feel my existence is often times a stain on my family and the World. I have emotional issues, I do not doubt that. I live with them and I often times can use them to propel myself to be better.
I’m glad you’re at least able to admit it. I hope you do not resist working through them because you think it is the only way you can become a better person.- Do you have any thoughts on why you are harsher and more distant since I came back to Colorado? I know why I am. We are currently broken-up and you did cheat on me. If I am not with you in person I do not have to talk to you. I am harsher because you want my honest answers and I still feel a strong sense of betrayal. I think if I can use words strong enough you will be able to truly comprehend the ache and devastation I have felt in the days and weeks following your action. When you were here it was hard for me to be upset with you because I saw you and I saw the person I fell in love with. Even when I would get red-eyed angry with you I couldn't accept it because all I wanted to do was hold you and cry. I wanted to ask you why until you told me it was a joke. I didn't want you to cry, I didn't/maybe I still don't feel you deserved to cry anymore. It was my turn to cry in front of you. I am weak in terms of these sort of actions.
You can cry in front of me. I don’t think you ever have, at least not openly, but I’d like you to feel supported enough to know that you can if it is something you need. I don’t know if I “deserved” to cry, but I did need it. Sometimes, you just gotta cry.
II. From 8/1 email "Counseling":
- How do you feel about hearing about counseling? Is this helpful or just annoying? I enjoy hearing about counseling. If you want to share with me I am here. If you don't want to share with me, that is fine. The only issue I see there-with you not sharing with me- is a distance that may build up between us when I return. However, if you do not think you can share your sessions with me that is your right.
I will continue to update you on the things I feel comfortable with. There are some things we discuss that I do not think you are ready to hear. I won’t deliberately keep anything from you. If you have a specific question, I will answer it honestly. I do not think it will create a gap between us. - What did you think about what I wrote about our misunderstandings? Do you agree? How did you like my suggestion for solving that (i.e. summarizing the important points each other are saying)? I like the summarising idea. Will it take place? I hope so, many times we said we would do something related to counseling only to stop after a week or less. Saying we will do something is easy, following through with it seems to be a problem for us.
I think email is working pretty well. At least we have the opportunity to review everything we are writing and choose our words carefully. We can ask clarifying questions where needed, and can correct misunderstandings we see. If/when we start talking in person or even on the phone again, the summarizing thing will probably be a good idea. It will be time consuming and we will have to bite off only small chunks at a time, but I think it will be beneficial.
III. From 8/4 email "RE: Counseling"
- How did you feel about the first bullet point under "Regarding me wanting to change you"? Where I talked about how I've struggled to be okay with your traveling? Can you accept that as something I have done for you? To a degree, I can. I still get upset about the selfishness you showed when I went to Atlanta a couple years ago. It didn't leave a good impression of you in my mind. I have told myself since then that it wasn't you as much as it was your emotional fragility at that time. You have mentioned that you knew before we were together that I love to travel so I get honestly confused as to why it still bothers you. It is a difference between us I suppose. I would love for you to travel or do things without me, I feel that it is healthy for a relationship to have time apart just as it is healthy to spend time together.
Again, it’s not that I didn’t know you loved to travel. I didn’t know I was going to feel the way I do. I am quite offended at you calling me “selfish” here. You do remember why that particular trip was so difficult for me, don’t you?* Or do you only remember me being upset?* We have talked about this numerous times. Also, it wasn’t “emotional fragility”. That makes me sound weak. Do you think what I, what my family, was going through made us weak, or fragile?*- I didn't mean to offend you with the second bullet point under "Regarding me wanting to change you". I guess you were getting angry due to the whole cheating thing and how I chose "stop seeing other people" as one of my examples. I guess that was a poor example. However, can I just say, I did change a lot of my behaviors for you, including staying in touch and household habits, and, yes, seeing other people as I don't consider what I did "seeing" someone (I think of seeing as dating). You may not have seen that because you didn't see how I behaved before we moved in together, but I did change, and have been changing as time goes on. I assume you know where I was going with my little story: once you get to a certain point in a relationship, you rarely take separate vacations, if possible, and traveling plans are made as a family or a couple, not as individuals. It wasn't that I wanted to change who you were or are, it was just that I've expected to see a natural change in behavior due to the progression of our relationship. You have changed your traveling habits considerably from say, five years ago, but I don't know how much of that is due to our relationship and how much is due to lack of opportunity. Okay, so, now that you're probably pretty mad again, how did you feel about all that that I just wrote? I will say that I changed my traveling because of our relationship. The opportunity is there and has been there many more times than I mentioned to you. I am confused why you say "staying in touch" and "household habits" are changes you've made. Did you not want to stay in touch? Was it something you had to force yourself to do? No. In your last email you said, “you have not devoted yourself to me in those respects,” regarding those examples. I was just trying to explain that I had, in my own way, and you haven’t noticed. I become discouraged when you say that. As for household habits, what do you mean? I openly supported many things you wanted to do. By "household habits" do you mean hosting orgies or having one night stands? What? Where did you get that idea? Of course not. I mean degree of tidiness, what I do with my free time, etc. That is a extremely opened ended remark from you, it worries me. One of the parts of you that further attracted me to you was when you told me once over the phone that you can't stand living in mess. You were referencing-wait, you have said it at least twice to me-having to clean up after your dad once. You mentioned it when I was in Ko-Rea and you were having to clean up after your mom and sister. Are those "household habits"? You would leave clothes and plates and food and various personal items laying around the house and I would walk around picking them up. I would wonder why you were leaving that little messes when you mentioned that you dislike people doing that.
Perhaps I am not as tidy as I could be, however, you do not know how I lived before we moved in together so you do not know how much effort I have put into changing, mostly for your benefit. It is not an easy task, changing your habits, changing yourself, yet I have attempted to do it, with no recognition from you for my efforts.- Important: how long have you been thinking I had changed? Since as soon as you got to Colorado or closer to last year? Closer to last year. The changes, mood and behavior, were progressive over the last year or so. I believe they are related to your mom's final months and your sometimes over driven devotion to work.
If the changes are related to my mom’s death, why does it bother you so much?* Can’t you see that it is just the grief and that things will get better, and that I need your support to get through it?*
Good night, I work at 7am and it is currently 10 'til 1. I am skipping a drink so that I can sleep. I am skipping dinner as well. Maybe these responses are helpful to you. I admit at times I got bothered and perturbed by what you wrote; mainly in relation to what you did July 3rd.
I love you,
Allen.
* I have starred the items I would like a response or answer to. You can respond to the other things if you want to.
|
|