special_k said:
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so you think it is okay for extremist groups to post stuff on how all the modern evils are because of the jews or the blacks or the muslims or the christians or whatever?

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Yes. I don't have to agree with what they say, but they have the right to say it.

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sometimes people aren't very interested in talking about why. sometimes their goal is solely to inspire hatred and discrimination toward some group or other...

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Yes, and I didn't say they'll tell me why they hate. I said I would like them to. I think people have a right to hate. Feelings aren't a choice, only perspective is choice. And even perspective isn't easily changed, especially if it's colored by tragic experiences and violence.

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i'm not so sure about that... i will listen if people are prepared to talk about reasons in a rational way. sometimes people are solely interested in rhetoric and in inspiring fear and hatred. those people... i don't think they should be allowed to air their views in a public forum. not until they are prepared to come to the party of providing reasons and having rational discourse.

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Some people don't know how to be rational. You can't expect "rational" behavior from someone whose life hasn't taught them to be rational. And why do you get to determine whose views and methods are rational? What you call rational may be irrational to someone else.

And yes, it does give them power. Because they will find others who share their views, and you won't know about it, because they've learned to hide it. Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. They will build their popularity underground, and when no one is ready, they will surface, more powerful than anyone imagined.

Most people don't see the racist supremecist groups, even though they're not so underground. But it's because people dismiss them and ignore them that they gain power. They find the young people who are still easily molded. They find the adults who have been victimized by a person or persons of a particular race. Those people may not have formed racist views yet, but the racists show them one point of view, show how this race has done this, and this, and this, and in the mind of the person whose opinion hasn't yet formed, this might make sense. When something makes sense, we don't always consider other points of view. Once we find something that makes sense, we don't always keep searching and exploring.

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i think it depends what they are trying to say... i'm just worried about hate speech.

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I don't know if you're American, but in the USA, free speech means you can say something that offends me greatly. I don't have to agree with it, I don't have to think you're right. Your opinion doesn't harm anyone. Your actions can. So, you can hate, and say you hate, as long as you don't commit actions because of your hate.

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and in this instance... i'm worried about privacy for those who have been convicted of sexual offences... don't get me wrong... if the list was those who are repeat offenders and who are likely to reoffend i wouldn't have a problem.

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I'm not arguing. Not everyone who commits a sexual offense will do it again. Some sexual offenses should resul in lifetime prison sentences, in my opinion. But not all.

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the bus driver... the guy who engaged in oral sex with his wife......they are victimless crimes.

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They are victimless crimes that never should have resulted in punishment. They should not be crimes.

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Ah. I didn't know that distinction, thanks for that. There is of course a difference between attraction and fantasy and acting out on that attraction / fantasy...

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Exactly. And the same is true of hate. Having the fantasy/hate, and sharing it with others (even with the intent of finding others or inspiring others to feel the same way), is your right. Acting it out, on the other hand, is not. We don't want thought police.

Lexicon said:
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What happens to those people? Do they ever live a "normal" life...do ya think?

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Some manage, I think. Most people who find out what they do will have some sense and feel they got a raw deal. Whatever you might think of Rob Lowe, he seems to have gotten back to a "normal" life (not that a Hollywood actor's life is normal, LOL!). I don't know him, and I have no way of knowing that he hasn't committed more illegal acts with minors, and that he isn't a horrible person, but from what I've seen (which I know is only a public image, and may be a false one), he's living a normal life with a normal marriage. Of course, he could be divorced now, for all I know...I don't keep up with celebrity gossip a whole lot.

justben said:
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I'm really not sure if a 14 year-old can give consent when we're talking about someone so much older. Regardless of how mature she was for her age, there's a huge difference in experience there.

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I agree. At 14, she doesn't know anything, even if she thinks she knows everything. Many girls believe sex equals love, or that it's okay to use their bodies and sex to get what they want, and they don't know the consequences that may not show up for several years. They're not capable of giving consent, because they don't understand enough about life. And men are not rendered victims who can't control their sexual impulses because a pretty girl (of any age) flirts with or seduces them. They are the adults, and they are responsible for saying no. They are perfectly capable of refusing sex with a woman, and they better damn well say no to an underage girl. The same goes for an adult woman and a minor boy or girl. It's stupid and even if you think it's okay, it's just not worth the trouble, IMO.