No, I think we're both on the same page September. I didn't say they were all good counselors And yes, I know first hand how inadequate many of them are. I wrote one of my degree theses on something to help them better utilize parts of the Bible for REAL counseling.

Up until the last few years, there was NO training of ministers of psychological counseling methods. So all of the real old time preachers are running with Bible sense only..which at times can be limited. Many fundamentalist ministers also tend to give that "just" pray about it...or "just" trust God, imo. Those ministers who also aren't really sure how to help lean on that heavily also, imo.

But then, you know, not all ministers do all things. A good preacher might not be very socialable nor much of a "pastor." A good pastor (one who is terrific in visiting and caring etc) might not be the best pulpit guy. (or, er gal I guess nowdays )

But the two do not have to be separate, that's what I meant. Psychology and Spirituality go hand in hand.