I don't think we are on the same page and we still do not agree, in my opinion, because you have misinterpreted what I said (ie. limits imposed from without).

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
alexandra_k said:
I don't know what 'God says about himself'. I suppose one might find it in the Christian bible or the Mormon bible or the Catholic bible or in the buddist texts or the hindu texts or the old testament or the new testament or through prayer etc... How do we decide what 'God says about himself' compared to what people have said about God????

I have no idea...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Exactly my point. Many assume they understand what/who God, what His plans are and how they are to be made manifest, and WHY all this suffering, but they never consider what the religious texts say - only the preconceived ideas of humans.

Even you are willing to debate the existance of God without any knowledge of Him whatsoever (in this instance, the Judeo-Christian God). Even if this does not move you to believe (which it won't, if you do not want it to), at least KNOW and UNDERSTAND the concepts to which you are ready to opine/debate.

How can one possibly take your reasoning serious now that it is known your knowledge is so one-sided, at best, since you do not even know about the God to which you are attributing so much contradiction to?

It is one thing to try to reason out in your mind by raising questions about God, it is another to assume that you can understand through your own reasoning , whether supplemented by theodicies (which again, is man-made and NOT texts that are considered to be "inspired by God").

The Bible is very clear on every "premise" that you have so far brought up. The problem is, without actually studying and increasing your knowledge, you will continue to run in circles because you do not/cannot understand where/what/why/how so many have come to a certain faith and trust in God.

God is not limited by power being imposed from without (logic/mathematics) for He is the one who created logic, mathematics, etc. (We, as humans are only discovering this "pure" language, not creating it!).

God does not contradict Himself because He has said He will or will not do something. He is always capable, it just would not be logical nor in keeping with His will to do so(and the promises already made). He is incapable of lying because it is not His will to lie. There are no "outside" influences that are imposed on God's power.

But, see, you would know that, if you knew what the Bible says.

Ps 146:3-4 states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; and in that day his thoughts do perish." (let's believe a dead guy's knowledge over an omnipotent being's knowledge)

or

Jer 10:23 which states: "I well know...that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (and mankind is doing such a great job with the world we were given, without God's help - which was our choice, by the way)

Nothing that is happening in the world should come as a surprise to anyone who is well-educated in the Bible, for it is all there.

The problem is with mankind, who wishes to remain blind. If they are unwilling to accept the existence of a higher power, then their choice will be honored by never seeing the existence of God in anything, nor be able to rationalize or come to any conclusions - always stuck in a cycle of debate - just like they have been doing for centuries - in formalities known as "theodicies."

Mat 15:14 - "Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Joh 12:39-43 - "The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: "He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them." Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory, and he spoke about Him. All the same, many even of the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess [him], in order not to be expelled from the synagogue; for they loved the glory of men more than even the glory of God." (italics mine).

Oh, and a favorite of mine:

2Cor 4:3-4 which states: "If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things(satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

I guess what I am trying to say is: there are so many ways that humans can be either blinded or led astray - either by our own will (ego, pride, selfishness, etc.), God's will, or by satan's will, who is really only following our lead and has been able to discern where our beliefs lie by our actions).

If one is still struggling with understanding, then they are most likely looking for answers in the wrong places - most being man-made.

Altered State