tealBumblebee, yeah, kinda like that I guess. I always struggle to articulate what I mean. I think my trouble with the concept of si-as-punishment comes from the thought of being "bad" or having "done bad" to be punished. I don't hold that judgement over myself when I si... I may think I am an unworthy person, but I do not equate myself with the "bad" I consider the people I believe should be punished. I guess it's vocabulary and intent...