some of my 'drunken postings' are actually very supportive ;-)

i'm glad you found some benefit to my post. once again i apologise that i didn't manage to convey what i wanted to say in a way that was easier to receive and that would not have been viewed as attacking.

back to the costs / benefits thing i think it is hard to weigh the pros and cons (to ones self, ones family, ones friends etc). for example... if the illegal immigrants were all deported the countries economy might actually collapse. here are some thoughts to back up that notion.

typically illegal immigrants find work where they are paid less than the minimum wage. they are there illegally so their employers don't need to worry about such things as paying them the legal wage. their employers also don't need to worry about such things as making the working conditions humane and meeting such things as occupational health and safety laws. this results in jobs that are filled by immigrants that would never be done by people who weren't illegal immigrants. those immigrants who work those kinds of jobs thus aren't 'stealing' jobs off citizens. if those illegal immigrants were deported then whoever was running the business might well be put out of business. one might think that that would be a good thing, but it if happened on a massive scale it could well lead to considerable harm to the economy of the country. and considerable harm to the economy of the country would result in considerable harm to oneself, ones family, ones friends etc.

i'm still ambivanent about considering some countries to be 'better than' others. i would think that that would depend a great deal on ones values. i'm reminded of a conversation between wittgenstein and one of his students:

student: despite all the problems of modern life i'd rather be living as we do now than living as the caveman did however many centuries ago.
wittgenstein: yes of course you would. but would the caveman?

i guess the immigrants who chose to immigrate do indeed reach the conclusion that they would be better off in whatever country they immigrated to. whether that is true or not depends on how you measure 'better off' i suppose. there are many remainder, however, and i'm sure some of them are more interested in improving their situation (through political revolution or helping others in their country or whatever) than in leaving their country behind and starting over in another.

i guess i just think that one less illegal immigrant is unlikely to improve my or my families and friends quality of life. it might affect that immigrants quality of life considerably, however. sure there is a slippery slope argument to the effect that if you let one stay you might as well open your borders with no restriction (which would indeed make the country broke) but as i said before if all the illegal immigrant workers went home... the economy would likely collapse.

imho the real injustice here is in the immigration laws that are happy to see professionals when what the country really needs is more hardworking unskilled labourers (for example). the latter might not meet official 'refugee status' but sometimes the improvement to their perceived quality of life can come close to that perceived by refugees. i think it is very sad indeed when a country economically relies on a source of labour where the labourers are typically paid less than minimum wage and work in terrible working conditions and then blames the workers for being there unlawfully. sigh. what a sucky world...

i guess that is why i would fairly much bow out of rocking the boat either way (wouldn't encourage people to come illegally or encourage the illegal people to go). just deal with the individual as an individual because the global scale of it all is beyond my comprehension and i figure most individuals are just trying to do the best they can. if its okay for me to have a little luck... maybe its okay for them to have a little luck too ;-)

just my 2 cents.