Quote:
Originally Posted by paulycoll
Yes i understand you are passionate about the area of mental illness. I am simply pointing out that people with a sz dx , are not usually able and capable of these huge feats of extraordinary achievment yet we have so many in the 'recovered' side , especially , the antipsychiatry contingent , that present such feats as plausible. I am saying , quite dispassionately , that this does not stack up when we look at the data. I think a basic human right , is that everyone deserves the truth. But people, sz included should certainly not take my word for it , look to the internet where there is a wealth of information. Everyone has a story , including me and we all have biases. And if someone does not want to apply themselves to a job or a relationship , if they want to watch tv , if they are asocial , i think its fine all i would ask is that they be informed.
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The Internet is not the world...it is a walled garden...it's not people 's minds it's not secrets...it's a public space. This is like going to New York and expecting to find a recovered sz just because there are lots of people. What are the odds anyone would be discussing that in public much less at the particular coffee shops and restaurants you choose to frequent. Even if you asked me directly I would not likely provide an honest answer to a stranger. That means the only people you will see are advocates (or people seeking help)and they probably have a reason they became that, a sense that they had something to more give...this certainly isn't everyone. In my analogy...these are the people with cars...they can go places the people who are walking cannot reach in their lifetimes. The guys who are walking the path have say a 100 IQ they may be content to walk to the end of their street to see what's there and then stop or they may note that the path is clear but not walk at all. Some of them may not even be capable of walking....nothing is wrong with any of this...I'm saying everyone is not equally equipped to traverse the path...and no one is forcing anyone to walk or crawl or whatever....what the people in cars are saying is my God I made it to the end of your street and there is a beautiful place a pond filled with ducks and swans where people are picknicing I wish you could see it. I can tell you how to get there but I can't do it for you there is no way someone can make this journey for you. So basically you have a choice...what the recovered, the advocates, the people in cars are saying is if you made it to the duck pond and you liked that then there's even more to see and it's amazing. You just can't see it from here. So it's not that they are showing you pics of the Grand Canyon which you might never see in your life as some sort of trick it's that they don't want anybody telling you the only thing you can do is sit in your driveway. They want to give you the option...you don't have to take it, you might not be able to take it but the idea is knowing it exists should be a comfort not some sort of condemnation of your own choices or options. The reality is most people don't see the world but the ones that do those are the ones who write books about the world they are the ones making the maps. If all you have is a bike and you'd like to see the ocean one day you will need a map to get there...you can't just ride around randomly and expect to reach the ocean. Sure you might actually find it on your own but then again you may not...your best best is to ask someone who's been there...
And I have to say when you first started this thread I thought you were trying to find the ocean and wanted a guide who'd been there but what you are looking for is much more rare you are looking for someone on foot who not only spent their lifetime walking to the ocean but took the trouble to walk back into town to help someone else even though plenty of people with cars had popped in to hand out maps. If I were that guy walking I don't think I would go back...why not see the mountains next instead? Or why not enjoy my new life at the beach? Why go back when I was given the same map you were and I made it to the ocean? Why spend the rest of my life walking back to help you when I already know there have been people helping you before and I have nothing to add but the fact that I saw it too just like all the people in cars. Is that going to make you feel better or worse? What you're saying is that a man who's walking will never make it to the ocean...what could I possibly do to convice you otherwise....the people in cars have already shown you photos of this man frolicking at the beach after walking there (16-38% cure rate)but you are asking for is video because you believe that man must have actually had a car all along...and even then if the video comes from someone in a car you might not believe it. You are asking the man to walk back and save you personally when it is so much harder for him to do that than the people in cars.
What I'm saying is the path is the same for everyone and maps have been handed out in the form of books research papers blogs and videos ...your ability to walk the path might be different based on prognostic indicators, IQ etc. That doesn't mean there is no path or there is no ocean or that nobody simply walks to the ocean just because you yourself have never walked to the ocean or ever seen someone walking to the ocean. What your comment suggests is that not only can a man not walk to the ocean but he should be told that there is no way he will ever make it to the ocean because that is the harsh reality....he should settle for the duck pond at the end of the street because that's the best he can do. That's what used to happen....elyn saks working as a cashier or being locked away forever...no one is saying being a cashier is bad but if that is given as your only option I'm saying that is bad. No one is saying you have to win a Nobel prize or even have a mid-level career what they are saying is what we say to every little kid growing up...you know you can be president some day or an astronaut....no one actually does these things that I've ever met and yet they are being done...are you advocating that we tell our kids that they will never ever be what they want to be that they have no options...college is a waste of time for someone like you? I can't say I see the benefit of that.
If you choose to believe that nobody with full sz recovers and you spread it around the only thing you will accomplish is crushing dreams, reestablishing the glass ceiling, putting the tree back in the road....except this time the people in cars will be gone...why waste time cutting the tree out of the road for those people who just chopped down another one to replace it. Instead we will simply airlift anyone with a car to the other side of the tree....those of us with cars will wonder why the tree is maintained by this group of people when it makes things harder for us and entirely stops their own progress. I have to say I don't understand why you would like to block the path...life is a journey and you may never make it to the ocean but think of everything you will see along the way.