jinzing-and all- Yikes this is a canoworms. 12-step groups scare me too. Many consider them a cult that won't acknowledge how few people they actually help or how many they hurt. There are a growing number of alternatives! I'd like to talk about it freely and directly, but I'm not sure what's the way here. It feels a little like bouncing on a pogo stick in a minefield trying to collect DDT thinned endangered species eggs some of which may actually be the mines, around this site to me so far. I'm an ex-acoa (adult children of alcoholics). I spent about a year with them and they did help me break out of my shell a little bit but... I have since had a traumatic experience with a related group online. I've been banished and made an un-person there, all my posts were erased like I had never been there, without warning, explanation, or apparent recourse. I fear the same here for this or subsequent posts. I guess I inadvertently broke their guidelines in an effort to find answers and urge them to evolve. I would have more respect for that organization if they acknowledged and linked to alternatives but to my knowledge they don't. They seem, to me, to be in denial systemically and jealously guarding their almost monopoly turf. Personally, I don't like the very word spiritual anymore (can I even say that here?), except in a historical sense. I'm an arts and sciences post-enlightenment secular humanist somewhat militant-atheist hard-determinist (whatever all that means), at the moment, (or this?) among other things. I have asked about posting references to websites that might be helpful but have yet to find or receive an answer. I'm still looking for a science based sort of 12-step free zone or something that specifically invites ex-acoas and concentrates on their rehab. needs. A group called SOS (save ourselves) seems the closest I've found so far but... I haven't joined.