Well these posts sure got interesting...
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Originally Posted by somat
that is interesting... i wrote something where the character referred to parents in this way and i didnt actually think about why, it just seemed to fit the character... what you said is probably why it did fit the story.
i just found it hard how quick we all were to talk about how horrible narcissistic parents were and about narcissism as if one either were or were not a narcissist. and as if we can only accept someone if we say that they are not a narcissist...
we all have narcissistic qualities. i can accept when i am acting on my narcissistic qualities and only when acknowledging it can i change it... and if i can accept the narcissism in others, i can accept the narcissism in myself. i dont have to like it, but acceptance is important.
the part about narcissists and insecurity bugged me because it was almost like we failed to see the insecurity because that would be seeing narcissists as human. but this is why narcissists so quickly explode when someone confronts their inflated sense of self worth. if they were secure, they would not be triggered.
forgiveness is giving up all hope of having had a better past--anne lamott.
(quotation key does not work).
also, i find it interesting and rather disturbing the research going on in social psychology on the rise of narcissism in western society.
to be human is to accept ourselves as we are, with our own history, and to accept others as they are--jean vanier.
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I don't judge anyone just because they are a Narcissist or otherwise highly narcissistic, that would be downright silly of me considering the fact that I am a highly narcissistic being myself. What I do judge people by is how they treat me, I don't hate my two Narcissists for parentals just because they're both Narcissists. I don't appreciate the way they behaved, especially as one left me with permanent physical damage that will never get better.
A malignant narcissist that is now an ex friend tried playing with me, and it is just in my nature to play back(and win too, and yes he deserved the ego shattering in every way you can imagine). I may be a psychopath but I am still a human being, and I like to be respected just like anyone else does. I still have wants and needs just like any human being does, it just looks different for me due to my unemotional nature and all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmaduke
somat,
the part about narcissists and insecurity bugged me because it was almost like we failed to see the insecurity because that would be seeing narcissists as human. but this is why narcissists so quickly explode when someone confronts their inflated sense of self worth. if they were secure, they would not be triggered.
Their explosions are not about a lack of security per say, they are about sheer bloody indignation.
Take my N sister if I disagree with her she with explode she is confident, a bully, a control freak, very driven, highly materialistic and the bossiest person you will ever meet. There is NO WAY you could view her as 'insecure'. She simply does not care about anyone but herself.
She has been like this since the get go.
With her inability to feel empathy, her greed and grandiosity she will not tolerate dissension, she is 'special' how DARE YOU challenge a God like that!
The illogical idea narcissists are all like it because they are 'insecure' is Freud's theory of over 100 years ago!!
People used to believe the Earth was flat, things change as science and knowledge moves on. Now we have brains scans which can chart brain activity.
Narcissists are human, and humans as a species are highly destructive to each other, and, to other species probably because there are many narcs around.
Normal people can be confident, or insecure.
Narcissists can be confident, or insecure, they can be overt or covert, shy or loud. The issue with narcs is whatever their persona they, cannot feel empathy
IMO wired differently, a difference in their amygdala seems likely.
"Emotions
The amygdala is part of the limbic system of the brain, which is involved with emotions and other reactions to stimuli. The amygdala is a processing center that is hooked up to receive incoming messages from our senses and our internal organs. It is highly involved with different emotional responses."
http://study.com/academy/lesson/amygdala-role-in-emotion-function-lesson-quiz.html
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The indignation thing, I think that's right on target just based on my personal experiences with narcissists. It doesn't look like insecurity to me, it's the HOW DARE YOU???!!!! thing, lol. With my ex friend that I mentioned above it was exactly like that, he wasn't insecure... he just hated me calling him on his ****, and in classic NPD style he could NOT admit that he had done ANYTHING worthy of me telling him off even though all the evidence was literally right in front of his face and I just kept pointing it out. He was so furious, and I was just sitting there calm as ever which infuriated him even more lol.
I like what you wrote about how people in general can be secure or insecure, ditto with narcissists as a specific group of people. Narcissists are still human, so they can be as secure as any "normal" person or as "insecure" as any normal person.
The lack of empathy thing, dead on accurate. There's a reason that there's a line of thinking that says that NPD and full blown psychopathy are on a spectrum and I think it has to do with the lack of empathy thing. I've never met a genuine narcissist that is at all capable of empathy, and I don't mean that to sound demonizing at all, it's just been what I've observed... I've met a lot of narcissists in my life.
One other difference I've noticed between narcissists and psychopaths is that narcissists have way more of a capacity to feel negative emotions, especially fear. My mother's husband is most definitely a narcissist, but he's told me about several incidents where he felt genuinely afraid(he was pretty open to discussing things with me after a few drinks and a good dose of ego shattering from me, lol... and about two years ago he told me that while I was still living with him that he was terrified that I would kill him, I told him deadpan that I wouldn't waste my time... For some reason that didn't help him feel any better, heh). Me on the other hand, I could tell you stories about my childhood where you would think that anyone would be absolutely terrified, but I was just pissed off and I saw the trauma I underwent for the first 22 years of my life as a game. In my case, ironically it is my trauma history that proves that for me I am more a product of genetics/nature than nurture. The way I reacted to traumatic events was so highly atypical that it's obvious that my inherent nature was different from the start. Though I will say, I think some of my personality traits were definitely accentuated due to my environment, but they were still there from the get go... just got amplified.
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Originally Posted by marmaduke
somat
Mentioning nature nurture in the social sciences will get you laughed out. Not because the dichotomy acknowledges more variables but because it fails to acknowledge them and the complexity involved.
As someone with a scientific logical mind, l would never 'laugh anyone out' because l have an open mind, l will consider all opinions.
I am well aware of the variables and complexity.
One of those complexity's is that sometimes genetic traits are so strong that nurture has little effect.
Once upon a time Galileo was 'laughed out' imprisoned no less, for saying the Earth was round.
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I'm like you, I like to think about all options to come up with a conclusion... But once I have come up with a conclusion, good luck talking me out of thinking I'm right, ha ha ha.
Genetics overruled nurture for me, it's obvious... If anyone takes one look at my family and then takes a look at me, it's not surprising at all that my psychopathy is innate, I was born this way.