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I ask why, if one kills one's self and is dead, why they care what other people are going to think afterwards?

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'Cause at this point, I am not dead yet and as such, still care. Believe me, if I could shut down my emotions, I would.

I understand and appreciate your POV, Perna, but I believe you are talking mostly in idealistic terms, here.

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you're trying to control what other people feel and think by deciding whether someone else is "suffering" from the consequences of your illness and whether they want to or not.

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Not really. Sometimes, it is pretty obvious to me and everyone around me that there is much suffering going on. Like watching my mother break down in tears out of frustration and anger or having to watch the embarrassment she feels when taking me to the hospital after an "episode," or the humiliation she feels when those around her accuse her of being a horrible mother; like having to hear from a sister that she does not want me to know her new family (by marriage) because I will "poison" them as well (her words). These are real and tangible situations - all very painful for both sides.

Of course those around me have a "choice," to suffer, but like many people, that choice may be "tainted" by their own insecurities and/or feelings of obligation, etc.

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Given the choice between having you alive and ill and "my" suffering trying to support/help you and you dead, I'd choose to suffer myself.

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Then you now are the one being selfish (well, not you, per se) because you would rather have me go on suffering so you can continue to try to support/help me. It's like keeping a family pet alive and in pain, so you can avoid the heart-ache of doing the right thing by letting it die or being pro-active by putting it to sleep so their own suffering will stop. Ok, this may not be the ideal example, as I am not asking that someone make this choice for me, but I am sure we all can understand what I am saying here).
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and it does look like selfishness to a lot of people when someone who does not want to be here with us tells us that.

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Yes, I know. My point exactly! It "looks" like selfishness. Am I really being selfish because I am tired of all this pain I feel and the obvious pain I put others through, and want it to stop? If "we" feel as though someone took their life because "we" thought it was because of "us," then I ask again: who is the one being selfish? If "we" are thinking about how "we" feel, where does my pain and suffering come into the picture? It doesn't. And tell me, why does anyone want to continue "suffering?" Could they be wanting to continue to feed their own dysfunctional perceptions?
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People who succeed suicidally often leave no clues as to their intent. They "give up".

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Don't know the exact stats on this, but I don't believe this is the case. Most times, it is only in hindsight that clues can be seen all over the place, and I can almost guarantee that someone was told, at some point, of their pain and their desire to give up or to die. I would surmise that they just got sick of trying to get their point across - just look at the instances of mass killings at schools these days as only one example. Every one of those kids(young adults) left glaring clues to how they were feeling - and for a very long time! People just choose NOT to see others in distress (for a whole list of reasons).

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I want to die" often feels to the person hearing it that that person has failed in some way to love enough or care enough or help enough, etc. to make a difference. "I want to die" implies the person saying it cares enough about living to tell me in case I can help them with their pain... Talking is an attempt at dialog, at communication but not everyone is real good at that. I use to express my suicidal interests most often when I had no other words to ask for help.

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I agree wholeheartedly with this. It is why I have chosen to talk about it on-line, here at PC, where these thoughts and feelings are not at all shocking, and are commonplace among many who are here. I do not express this IRL any longer, precisely because they do not/ would not/ cannot understand the depth of my pain AND because I understand that, as much as they would like, they simply do not have the power to relieve my pain. Is this being selfish? Or am I being selfish because I have raised it here rather than with those IRL?

And again, if that person feels they have "failed," they are no longer thinking outside themselves, but are being ego-centric. It also confirms that they still do not, or don't want to, understand the depths to which I continue to suffer.

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"When is enough, enough?" is one of those questions we can never know the answer to, can debate it all we want and have an opinion of but, since we can't know the future, we can't even resolve it anymore than we can know how the world actually was "created" or what happens when we die.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> You are right. It is a question that cannot be answered to any satisfaction. It is a question I must answer for, and by myself. However, it doesn't stop the question from being asked, in thought or in words.

I am glad you have stuck around to see all the miracles in life that you have experienced. Don't really know if I could say the same (well, I'm sure I can, just not at this point and in this frame of mind).


I do appreciate what you have said here, Perna, even though there are valid arguments that can be made against some of the your points (but that is normal for any topic open for comment and debate, right?)

It's also just where I'm at right now - B&W thinking.

At least it keeps me thinking (and I gotta be alive for that!)