I wish there were a way that we could take this thread and give it to abusive parents. Like in a court ordered group or Parent's annonomous? We have a lot to teach. How about making parents who lose their kids through abuse have to hear these stories as part of the work of getting their kids back? I for one am way too old, they didn't remove kids hardly ever back then. But today it happens. I would have been yanked in a heart beat.