I understand tevelygo's point, at least much of it. And I think siding with one side over the other (kid vs. parents) is pointless and unhelpful.

Usually a lying habit develops because most kids lie to stay our of trouble, and then, because lying seems to be the only way to stay out of trouble, it becomes a habit. That has become a communication problem between the kid and parents at that point. I have observed that in about 95% of parent/child conflicts or issues the parents are at least 85% at fault. I mean the the children are actual children or teens, or even young adults often. I have not really looked at issues between fully developed adult offspring and their parents. There is a very small percentage of kids who, for reasons mostly beyond the parents, have such profound behavioral and psychological impairments, they are nearly impossible to parent. Though these cases are rare.

So many parents set up a system in which there is no winning situation for kids. They overreact and over-discipline when a kid is honest about something the parents don't like. Of course, they also get super angry when the kid lies. AND they make it worse for the kid to decide to come clean after initially lying.

We all want our kids to do what we think they should and to make good choices. Of course we do. But the fact is, kids are going to make some bad choices, make mistakes, and do stupid things. We can't help them if they are too scared to come to us with honesty after they have done something wrong. If we make telling us the truth worse than lying, they are going to learn to lie and be secretive, and be manipulative.

I am not saying we shouldn't discipline at all ever. I am saying we need to keep it in check. My son knows that I won't condone his behavior when he does something that he knows I won't like. Sometimes he talks about it with me beforehand, and we look at ways to make it less risky or potentially harmful, and sometimes he chooses not to do it because he respects my honesty and calmness with him. I am also blessed to have his trust, and that of many of his friends. The know that coming to me honestly about their problems and challenges isn't going to result in long lectures or immediate punishment, but rather, probably a good length talk in which we both participate and discuss and weigh different options. And I never lie to them. On the rare occasion when I thought I absolutely HAD to bring in someone else, like their parents or a health or mental health professional or law enforcement, I have always told them with a clear explanation of why.

I agree that yelling at a kid for hours, and punishing them because they won't admit to doing what you are sure they have done, but don't really know for sure, IS controlling, bordering on abusive. Because prolonged yelling at a kid is abusive, period. Everyone has yelled at a kid in the heat of the moment or out of fear, but if it lasts more than one or two minutes, it has gone too far. If one can't get their temper and fight or flight response under enough control by then to quit yelling, they have a problem.Yelling is intimidating and frightening, and is meant to be that way. Spending hours trying to intimidate and frighten another person is abusive, is a form of torture. It is controlling and manipulative and cruel.