I have not finished the whole podcast yet but, so far, I have been struck by Marty's own involvement as well. It is hard for me to comprehend how someone can get so enmeshed for so long but I guess it's only me as I fail to relate to many other types of long-term interpersonal enmeshment and dependency also reported on this forum. I've grown to accept that it is just something I will probably never fully comprehend but can be very real/serious for many people (just like my substance addiction was for me).