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Originally Posted by FooZe
I eventually arrived (by the scenic route, of course  ) at what seems like the polar opposite of that approach, and it now seems like the only approach that's ever worked for me. I guess it could best be summarized as "Start from where you are." I might look around, notice what I'm aware of and what my options are -- and then notice what I ended up choosing. |
Hey. Glad you didn't have an issue with the long post.
OK, so. Do you mind giving me a label to refer to this approach you were doing that wasn't working for you? Some kind of judgmental approach with biases and expectations formed in advance? And would you say the opposite approach - that did end up working for you - is related to mindfulness? The second link (to the thread about disappointment) seemed like outright mindfulness.
I see one of the threads was also titled discipline & determination. I feel like that's very the opposite to mindfulness, but maybe I'm not following you here, let me know what you think about that. (See more below)
And I'm not sure if you were referring to how mindfulness can help get things flowing rather than there being walls and blocks in the way. ?
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Several years ago I learned that a group of psychologists including Steven Hayes and Marsha Linehan had been writing about similar approaches and even developing therapies based on them. Here's a book by Hayes that's oriented to the general public, not to psychologists in particular: https://www.amazon.com/Get-Your-Mind.../dp/1572244259
Does this happen to ring any bells, push any buttons, pull any triggers, etc., for you?
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I've looked at the book before, I did not have the time to read it from start to end, just sampled stuff from it, some of it was interesting, some of it over my head; but really, what rang any bells or pushed any buttons or whatever we could call it, was that, where I thought about discipline & determination vs mindfulness and that overall relaxed and non-forceful approach you described. Like again, the two are really opposite and I don't know whether you were trying to ask me if I'd think one of them would work for me better.
Let me know if I'm totally off track though.
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Originally Posted by FooZe
(Ramble, continued)
It sounds from here as if where the idea that you have a wall is located, is not in your own experience. I guess it could conceivably be located in your therapists' experience of you, but it sounds just as likely that it's part of a story about you that they've been telling themselves and each other -- for therapeutic purposes, of course -- something like this:
---------- Entering FooZe's fantasy. ----------
Please watch your step.
1st Therapist:  I've said all the right things but she's not responding the way she's supposed to. It's as if there were a wall between us or something!
2nd Therapist: Yeah, some clients are like that -- so well defended that you can't do a thing with them. It's not your fault. Just tell her you can't work with her if she won't open up and become more vulnerable.
---------- Leaving FooZe's fantasy. ----------
Please watch your step.
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Yes. That makes a lot of sense. In that, the first one is like, trying to oversimplify the issue. And the second one is, well yeah they have their own idea of what walls I may have. But, in reality; regardless of whether I have strong thick boundaries that can be called walls, that would not have anything to do with my level of motivation and willingness to find solutions for my issues.
BTW someone else in this thread noted that therapy isn't for everyone. What would usually be meant by that? Do you agree with that thought?
That vulnerability issue, I'll open a new thread on it sometime because I have some big questions about it.
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I also don't know how much Paul Simon was speaking for himself here as opposed to portraying a "don't-be-like-this" character as a cautionary tale for his audience:
I’ve built walls
A fortress, steep and mighty
That none may penetrate ...
(I Am a Rock, c. 1966)
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That's just the thing. If that wall was built up somehow a long time ago in the past, which it was, yes....Now I don't know if I want to keep it as is or not. The one useful nugget of line I've ever read about this so far was, you cannot go and try and tear down walls, it would be harmful and it just doesn't work like that anyway. I can wholeheartedly agree with that note.
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To pick up a previous thread for a moment:
When I was in my teens I was worried about what relationships (with girls) I should or shouldn't subject myself to. If I found someone I liked and I was able to approach her confidently and warmly, I figured I'd obviously be better prepared to win her heart (or at least her interest) than if I hung back defensively. And of course, having "won" once, I'd feel that much better prepared going into subsequent encounters. However (and here's the rub): if I chose the wrong person, or approached her wrong and she happened to reject me, I'd be burdened with the hurt feelings from that encounter going into the next one, and the next one, and the next. 
It took me quite a few years to discover that I could approach someone just because I was choosing to, not because I could tally up more good reasons to, than not to; and that if she happened to reject me and I was satisfied that I was there by my own choice and had done the best I could, it would feel to me like a win, not a loss.
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I think I understand you there with it being a win and not a loss whenever you took action assertively. I am not sure how we relate this to this thread? As this seems like specifically romantically oriented.