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Originally Posted by Etcetera1
Do you mind giving me a label to refer to this approach you were doing that wasn't working for you? Some kind of judgmental approach with biases and expectations formed in advance? And would you say the opposite approach - that did end up working for you - is related to mindfulness?
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At the moment I can only think of flippant labels like, "What we've all learned to do, all the time". Oh, and I've heard it described as living in the "story" we tell ourselves. And yes, "mindfulness" seems to be the umbrella term for many different variations on focusing on what's so for us here and now.
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I see one of the threads was also titled discipline & determination. I feel like that's very the opposite to mindfulness, but maybe I'm not following you here, let me know what you think about that.
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As I recall, the other poster seemed to be asking why discipline and determination didn't always seem to get her where she wanted to go. I suggested looking at (for example) how she knew that was where she wanted to go.
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And I'm not sure if you were referring to how mindfulness can help get things flowing rather than there being walls and blocks in the way. ?
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While "getting things flowing" could be a way to describe the process in hindsight, if you were to focus on "I want to get things flowing" it would be no different from "I want to break through that wall [that my therapist apparently can see but I can't]". In either case you're dealing with something that you experience only in the form of a concept or story; for instance, if you decide to believe you must have a wall, can you then point to it or describe what it looks like, feels like, sounds like, smells like? If you decide you don't want to have a wall and you try to resist it -- stop thinking about it, or move it aside, or chop a hole in it, or shatter it with cannon fire -- any of those would most likely just make the concept of the wall more, not less, real for you.
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That's just the thing. If that wall was built up somehow a long time ago in the past, which it was, yes....Now I don't know if I want to keep it as is or not. The one useful nugget of line I've ever read about this so far was, you cannot go and try and tear down walls, it would be harmful and it just doesn't work like that anyway. I can wholeheartedly agree with that note.
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As for how it could be "harmful", here's one way I imagine it.
---------- Entering FooZe's fantasy ----------
Please watch your step.
Suppose that someone, perhaps in collusion with a therapist or other authority, were to agree that they really did have a wall and that their job was to break through that wall at any cost. How might they go about determining (and informing their therapist) if they were succeeding at their task or not?
Possibility 1: Everything goes wonderfully well, just like in a storybook. Client quickly discovers that they have no need for a wall and never did, ships the rubble off to the landfill, and goes on to live happily ever after.
Possibility 2: Client struggles to get rid of their wall but it not only won't budge, it actively defies their efforts. The more they struggle with it, the taller and harder and thicker it grows. Therapist tells client what client already suspects: that they're not trying hard enough. Client redoubles their efforts and wall responds by growing even taller, harder, and thicker.
Possibility 3: Client hears or reads somewhere that it's dangerous to break down walls before one is ready.

Client decides it's all the therapist's fault but therapist will have none of it. To underscore their point, client goes on a rampage in the streets, scares numerous horses, gets sectioned and written up in the tabloids. Upon being released, client embarks on a new career as poster child for the proposition that it's dangerous to break down walls.
---------- Leaving FooZe's fantasy ----------
Please watch your step.
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I've looked at the book before, I did not have the time to read it from start to end, just sampled stuff from it, some of it was interesting, some of it over my head; but really, what rang any bells or pushed any buttons or whatever we could call it, was that, where I thought about discipline & determination vs mindfulness and that overall relaxed and non-forceful approach you described. Like again, the two are really opposite and I don't know whether you were trying to ask me if I'd think one of them would work for me better.
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Or: regardless of whether or not you
think one or the other would work better for you -- what your
experience has been with them.
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... someone else in this thread noted that therapy isn't for everyone. What would usually be meant by that? Do you agree with that thought?
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I'm afraid I don't know enough about whom therapy is or isn't for, to agree
or disagree. For me the bottom line is: do what works for you.
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I think I understand you there with it being a win and not a loss whenever you took action assertively. I am not sure how we relate this to this thread? As this seems like specifically romantically oriented.
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I knew that I
could have carefully evaluated the situation according to whatever "rules" I was using to determine when to act and when not to...
You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run...
-- The Gambler (Kenny Rogers, 1978)
... and steered clear, perhaps regretfully, if that was what the rules dictated; or else pushed myself into a situation I personally wasn't entirely comfortable with, just because I "needed" the practice.
What made it a win for me was that I discovered I'd proceeded not according to what I "should" do, but according to what I found I was (or wasn't)
willing to do -- and that I'd been willing to accept the outcome, whatever it might be. I've also heard that called, "First I win, then I play."
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That vulnerability issue, I'll open a new thread on it sometime because I have some big questions about it.
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Oh, by all means! When you do, though, I hope you'll illustrate as clearly as you can, what the idea of "vulnerability" does (and/or doesn't) mean to you.