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Originally Posted by FooZe
At the moment I can only think of flippant labels like, "What we've all learned to do, all the time". Oh, and I've heard it described as living in the "story" we tell ourselves. And yes, "mindfulness" seems to be the umbrella term for many different variations on focusing on what's so for us here and now.
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That makes sense on a general level, yeah. I'm just never clear on whether mindfulness is about your internals or the external situation or both at once.
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As I recall, the other poster seemed to be asking why discipline and determination didn't always seem to get her where she wanted to go. I suggested looking at (for example) how she knew that was where she wanted to go.
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OK, I see what you intended by including that thread. I think in my case instinct can propel me forward, instinct about what I want.
But I asked that originally about contrasting discipline&determination with mindfulness because I wondered if the two are mutually incompatible sometimes. I am a very determined type of person and so it occurred to me that maybe that's why I'm having issues with understanding what mindfulness is really like.
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While "getting things flowing" could be a way to describe the process in hindsight, if you were to focus on "I want to get things flowing" it would be no different from "I want to break through that wall [that my therapist apparently can see but I can't]". In either case you're dealing with something that you experience only in the form of a concept or story; for instance, if you decide to believe you must have a wall, can you then point to it or describe what it looks like, feels like, sounds like, smells like? If you decide you don't want to have a wall and you try to resist it -- stop thinking about it, or move it aside, or chop a hole in it, or shatter it with cannon fire -- any of those would most likely just make the concept of the wall more, not less, real for you.
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I understand you I think, and that's what I meant by determination being possibly incompatible with mindfulness, sometimes. At least under certain circumstances. (After all, determination could also help, as you could have the determination to jump headfirst into mindfulness. If you know exactly where and what to jump into, lol!)
I will say I did not try to attack the overall wall thing directly as I did not really envision it in any form and because it seems like a too general level of conceptualisation for me personally to be able to do much with it directly, but it's like I keep being so motivated and determined about pushing myself about all these things about therapy and psychology self-help and stuff. (Except the mistrust that I've grown about therapy now, the rest I'm still pushing myself about.) And that does seem to be like doing something to the wall(s) or whatever it is. I often cannot tell if it is doing it any good or bad. And it's exhausting.
To be really clear though, I do feel more relaxed sometimes but it's hard to do that and I can't even be sure if that's real improvement, like I did not measure how often I am relaxed now, compared to before.
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Suppose that someone, perhaps in collusion with a therapist or other authority, were to agree that they really did have a wall and that their job was to break through that wall at any cost. How might they go about determining (and informing their therapist) if they were succeeding at their task or not?
Possibility 1: Everything goes wonderfully well, just like in a storybook. Client quickly discovers that they have no need for a wall and never did, ships the rubble off to the landfill, and goes on to live happily ever after.
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Haha well definitely not what I've had going down with this
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Possibility 2: Client struggles to get rid of their wall but it not only won't budge, it actively defies their efforts. The more they struggle with it, the taller and harder and thicker it grows. Therapist tells client what client already suspects: that they're not trying hard enough. Client redoubles their efforts and wall responds by growing even taller, harder, and thicker.
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Oh man, therapy gone so wrong here. Makes a bit of sense too for my case, yes. In some way.
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Possibility 3: Client hears or reads somewhere that it's dangerous to break down walls before one is ready.  Client decides it's all the therapist's fault but therapist will have none of it. To underscore their point, client goes on a rampage in the streets, scares numerous horses, gets sectioned and written up in the tabloids. Upon being released, client embarks on a new career as poster child for the proposition that it's dangerous to break down walls.
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Lol!
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Or: regardless of whether or not you think one or the other would work better for you -- what your experience has been with them.
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Hard for me to really generalise about this. Determination and discipline is a big part of my self-image and identity, and I would not want to drop it all. But I understand, emotions work in a different way and blah. You know what I mean, I think. But I haven't been able to resolve this contradiction for myself. Having therapy work somehow, work with my emotions without having to lose my actual self.
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I knew that I could have carefully evaluated the situation according to whatever "rules" I was using to determine when to act and when not to...You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run...
-- The Gambler (Kenny Rogers, 1978) ... and steered clear, perhaps regretfully, if that was what the rules dictated; or else pushed myself into a situation I personally wasn't entirely comfortable with, just because I "needed" the practice.
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Pretty much my story with therapy. The bolded.
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What made it a win for me was that I discovered I'd proceeded not according to what I "should" do, but according to what I found I was (or wasn't) willing to do -- and that I'd been willing to accept the outcome, whatever it might be. I've also heard that called, "First I win, then I play."
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Mmm, yeah, that idea makes me feel more relaxed about therapy, that I should have the right to decide and know for myself when I am ready or willing to do something. Because I was told I do not have that right, and that instead I need to force myself to open up and so I did all that discipline and determination to try and force it, you know. It ended in a disaster.
A friend later told me that he is considering therapy but will only enter when he feels ready for it. I don't know what he meant by that really... He's much more in tune with his feelings than I am so he knows pretty well if he FEELS ready for something or not. I don't really know or feel it so I just push myself lol
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Oh, by all means! When you do, though, I hope you'll illustrate as clearly as you can, what the idea of "vulnerability" does (and/or doesn't) mean to you.
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I will give it a serious go, yes. Thank you.