Pat -- It was also knowing parts of your story and what we have shared with each other that has gotten me to thinking about this.

When P first left me, I moaned and whined to my shrink and my T about how I didn't want to be one of those middle-aged women who go to restaurants in groups, laughing and chattering without men.

As I come out of the post-stress trauma syndrome and depression, I fear men. I don't mean I expect to be raped or beat up, but I fear how I can give everything -- as you did -- and be left with nothing. Thrown away as if I am nothing. You had to get the guts to leave -- although you felt like you left with no shred of self-esteem, you have that courageous act of self-redemption as the start of your core of self.

I lived through the past two years, and didn't kill myself, and I guess that's gonna have be the foundation of my core of self-esteem.

But I do better understand why so many middle-aged women stick together in clutches, like birds.

I think this is an important thread because I observe so many of our younger members experiencing severe pain because of the partner's behavior. I remember that pain. I remember crying myself to sleep, clutching my empty wine bottle on the bed next to me, like a stuffed animal.

I know part of this pain for younger Psych Central member is hormones and life stage. I know part of it is the way our society uses sex to sell everything. I know as older women we face the pain of being thrown away by our society and outliving men so that the pool of availables shrinks. I wrote an academic research article about that, so I guess I have been contemplating this in one way or another for 10 years of so.

I hope that some of the younger members who pine for a relationships will be motivated to think about what the trade is. Susan/Ozzie, I think you've struck upon something important, too, the issue of self-esteem. I hope younger members will make sure that they establish a nice healthy strong self-esteem first and don't rely on getting their self-esteem from the other person. It is so very easy to slide into that without knowing it. We think we won't. Then we do it.

I am just thinking this through. I don't want to fear intimacy with men. Neither do I want to long for it in the way I used to.

I appreciate all responses from M and F and every age and stage of life.