[Malady156]

Sorry if this question offends anyone -- and if you get triggered easily you might want to stop here and NOT read this -- but Mal has to ask something because it simply does not understand.....



WHY.

Why do people automatically default to the belief that drugs and/or alcohol automatically bes BAD or WRONG?

WHY?

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but it seriously doesn't get this. It seems like this mentality contributes to the problem of addiction by adding a "forbidden fruit" component to the equation AND an axiomatic assumption that use will ALWAYS result in a one-way trip to a horrible dependency or addiction that will make you sick all the time, etc. Well, that just bes not real, period. Many people drink and/or use drugs of different types for various reasons and don't end up addicts going around stealing to support their habits or crashing the car or whatever. It seems that if we didn't put an automatic "bad" label on it, there would be more opportunity to teach (and model) RESPONSIBLE use of such things.

[perhapsbelligerent]

well i don't believe drugs are bad or wrong.

I've been a strong supporter for clinical research of psychadelics, and believe them to be potential tool to help people explore their psyche and work through their hang ups.

morphine, codine, and opiate painkillers - something ive been physically addicted too and have major problems staying away from i believe are tools that man kind must never be rid of for they are the most potent pain killers for people who are in actual pain. without them amputees would still be huffing ether, and people with broken bones and cancer would be stuck with tylenol.

the worst you'll ever hear me say about marijuana is that it's illegal.

a form of cocaine is still used for pretty much all dental work (novacaine), and root canals would be way worse than they already are without it.

however with all these positive uses, drugs can still lead to addiction, and prison. both roads of which ive been down. while your 100% correct, responsible use is possible, and many people do it, it hasnt been for me.

I try to speak the best i can from experience, and im just more experienced with those who take these tools and abuse them to their more darker paths.

Im new to the board, but from what i've noticed, im far from the only recovering addict on this board. so yeah, their probably is going to be a little bias towards them taking you down the road of addiction here than on other boards... however no i dont believe the drugs themselves to be bad.

their just inadement objects.

guns arent bad intill you have a person picking them up.

[Mandocello]

Originally Posted by Malady156

Sorry if this question offends anyone -- and if you get triggered easily you might want to stop here and NOT read this -- but Mal has to ask something because it simply does not understand.....



WHY.

Why do people automatically default to the belief that drugs and/or alcohol automatically bes BAD or WRONG?

WHY?

I blame organized religions. Look at the history of prohibition. The 18th amendment was passed almost exclusively through the work of a variety of christian-based organizations. Islamic law forbids them, the Baha'is, some Jewish schools of thought (with the obligatory 'fruit of the vine' exemption). The list goes on.

Unfortunately, it would be a Quixotic quest to make significant change. You might have better luck knocking down windmills with your joints and pill bottles than re-educating the masses.

Not that I have any opinion..

[stormydaye]

Many people associate drugs and alcohol with activity that one would probably not engage in if not under the influence of them.

And also, many people do use drugs and alcohol as an escape and a way to avoid having to deal with their real issues therefore never dealing with them and furthering their descent into the abyss (Raising hand).

Hugs,
Stormy

[Catherine2]

I also don't believe drugs/alcohol are bad...when used in moderation or in the case of drugs, properly.

That said, I did not use either in any healthy, relaxing way. Jme.

RE addiction...for the most part, any recovering person will do what they can to help someone get clean and sober. I've little use for anyone who spouts self-righteous indignation and accusation; towards the person and/or the drugs.
Jme, but it's how they are used or abused...

Catherine

it depends ((mal))) on how you mean.
My parents drank alcohol every day from 4 to 7...thats a addication as it effected my life as a child. As alcohol has so many ppl I am not alone at all on that.
My sister did coke, codine, alcohol everyday. Her feet did not hit the floor before she did a line.
that in turn impacted my life and my childrens when I took care of her after rehab.
plus she never knew my kids till they were all grown up. Most of all how it impacted her life. She is now clean. But not with out loss.


it depends if its done in moderation
sending you caring thoughts and hope you are well

[Malady156]

Originally Posted by perhapsbelligerent

well i don't believe drugs are bad or wrong.

I've been a strong supporter for clinical research of psychadelics, and believe them to be potential tool to help people explore their psyche and work through their hang ups.

Same here actually ... in a safe or even sacramental setting, handled with respect and not used for mere "kicks", these entheogens can be tremendous catalysts for therapeutic use and major life transformation.

morphine, codine, and opiate painkillers - something ive been physically addicted too and have major problems staying away from i believe are tools that man kind must never be rid of for they are the most potent pain killers for people who are in actual pain. without them amputees would still be huffing ether, and people with broken bones and cancer would be stuck with tylenol.

True -- but agree with you, the potential for addiction here can be very strong, and physical addiction can be sheer hell to beat. Haven't had to deal w/ that personally but have known those who have.

the worst you'll ever hear me say about marijuana is that it's illegal.

a form of cocaine is still used for pretty much all dental work (novacaine), and root canals would be way worse than they already are without it.

Agree there too. Though Mal in particular enjoys the nitrous, as it gives us visions.

however with all these positive uses, drugs can still lead to addiction, and prison. both roads of which ive been down. while your 100% correct, responsible use is possible, and many people do it, it hasnt been for me.

Understood -- and it respects your experience and your journey with it, too. You have to make the decisions that optimize your chance at wellness and the kind of life you want. Totally respect that.
Thanks for a very good & thorough answer here.

[Malady156]

Originally Posted by Mandocello

I blame organized religions. Look at the history of prohibition. The 18th amendment was passed almost exclusively through the work of a variety of christian-based organizations. Islamic law forbids them, the Baha'is, some Jewish schools of thought (with the obligatory 'fruit of the vine' exemption). The list goes on.

The prohibitive mentality would definitely be a powerful factor here, and organized religion (or anything either constructed as, or later used for, a tool of control over people's minds and views) would definitely view as a "rival" anything that could expand consciousness into areas that would lead to deviating from the "party line". Good call.

Unfortunately, it would be a Quixotic quest to make significant change. You might have better luck knocking down windmills with your joints and pill bottles than re-educating the masses.

Not that I have any opinion..

You have as much opinion and right to share it as anyone else here. Thanks for doing so.

[Malady156]

Originally Posted by stormydaye

Many people associate drugs and alcohol with activity that one would probably not engage in if not under the influence of them.

And also, many people do use drugs and alcohol as an escape and a way to avoid having to deal with their real issues therefore never dealing with them and furthering their descent into the abyss (Raising hand).

Hugs,
Stormy

Yeah ... gotta raise its hand too on that one, not the least of which reason that you speak its language (Mal dwells in the Abyss actually, and its entire being constitutes a trans-dimensional portal to it) but also it has in the past discovered interesting shortcuts and enhancements to congressus through entheogenic agencies. The Immolator doesn't seem to care if it partakes or not -- He will ravish this one either way, and take the throne of God as it pleases Him -- but that would be a different topic for a different thread.

However, it has not used them in the past for escape of mundane problems, but for enhancement of its already trance-dissociative state of mind to intensify existing experiences already outside the dimensions of most people. Mundane problems still exist, using did not make them go away, but they would still exist without using too, and still be as insurmountable in its present condition and state of mind overall. And when it originally used them for the first times as a teenager it had always been with a spiritual motivation, to expand consciousness, rather than escape or for "kicks". Never really understood that mentality much, actually. Maybe escape and kicks users end up addicted then? And those who regard them as sacraments do not? Something to ponder....

[Malady156]

Anyone else it hasn't answered directly please know it did read all responses and thanks you for sharing your views too.


So what criteria generally mark the line where a person has crossed over from "responsible recreational use", lets say, into addiction or the danger of addiction with either drugs or drink? Speaking in terms of stuff like "psychological" addiction since the physical should be obvious to anyone using something that carries that risk -- when you get sick physically because you NEED (physically) the drug or drink, that would be obvious of course that you would be addicted -- and how "bad" (i.e., unhealthy, detrimental to oneself and one's life) would just psychological addiction be as opposed to physical? Would it be possible at all to be just "psychologically" addicted and still lead a productive, functional life or would the two be mutually exclusive in your opinions?

[splitimage]

The broad definition of addicted or dependent on a drug could inlcude some of the following criteria.

Repeated attempts to stop, without success.
Continued use despite negative consequences, often increasingly negative consequences of use in the person's life.
Continual or obsessive thoughts about using or when the next drink/drug is going to come.
Using alone.
Feeling guilty about use.
Having friends or family express concern about use.
Bottom line - is it interfering negatively with your life?

These are some of the criteria in the definition of addition, not getting into physical withdrawl symptoms that are used at my treatment centre.

I don't think drugs or alcohol are inherently bad. I have lots of friends who can drink socially. I can't. I drank myself out of a job and into a hospital. I struggle every day with wanting a drink. I'm addicted. At this point I've been sober long enough that I'm no longer physically dependent - thank God. But psychologically - oh yeah. And I'm psychologically addicted to shopping too - I have to be very careful with that, becasue I get the same rush from buying as I did from drinking. In my mind psychological addiction is as devastating and harder to beat than physical dependence. With physical dependence you go through shear hell withdrawing, and can feel like **** for weeks or months depending on the drug, but once it's out of your system - it's out. But you still want the rush or the numbness or whatever got you to the point of abuse in the first place - that's the psychological component. You have to beat both.

Do I think some drugs are "safer than others" yes. I've tried pot - didn't do anything for me, but I wouldn't go near crack, cocaine, crystal meth, or heroin with a 40 foot pole - they're too addicting too fast and they take you down real hard and fast.

To me anyone who does any kind of drug without explicit Dr.'s orders is abusing them and is at serious risk for addiction.

--splitimage

[nolababy121]

Well I for one do not think drugs or alcohol are bad or wrong. They are substances and if not kept under control, people may or may not do bad things on them. Also, some substances are bad to certain people because they can not control them... so to them... drugs are bad, wrong, immoral... it is opinion. But I believe people use for reasons that are worth exploring before people just label with negatives.

[robert belcastro]

Originally Posted by Malady156

Sorry if this question offends anyone -- and if you get triggered easily you might want to stop here and NOT read this -- but Mal has to ask something because it simply does not understand.....



WHY.

Why do people automatically default to the belief that drugs and/or alcohol automatically bes BAD or WRONG?

WHY?

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but it seriously doesn't get this. It seems like this mentality contributes to the problem of addiction by adding a "forbidden fruit" component to the equation AND an axiomatic assumption that use will ALWAYS result in a one-way trip to a horrible dependency or addiction that will make you sick all the time, etc. Well, that just bes not real, period. Many people drink and/or use drugs of different types for various reasons and don't end up addicts going around stealing to support their habits or crashing the car or whatever. It seems that if we didn't put an automatic "bad" label on it, there would be more opportunity to teach (and model) RESPONSIBLE use of such things.

I agree, I believe that you can use drugs like peyote and hallucinogens for creative purposes, as with alcohol, but as for me when it interferes with my life I believe then it becomes an addiction, If you google THIQ it will explain about alcohol addiction. I hope I understood the question right. wishing you happiness. Bobby

[Raynaadi]

This is a really interesting thread.

I can only speak from my own prsonal experience. When I started drinking, it certainly wasn't with the intent to escape or "numb out". I started socially, like most people. Before I knew it, I needed a glass of wine to sleep. Then I started drinking heavily on weekends, making myself vomit to make room for more. Then it became every night, moderating on work nights, going all out on weekends.

I never meant for it to happen like that. Soon, yes, my life began falling apart, and then I needed the drink to cope. I became physically and mentally addicted. I didn't know I had crossed that line, I didn't know I was at a jumping off place when I started using wine to sleep.

It wasn't until I got sober, and started learning about alcoholism, that I understood. I react differently to alcohol than the average temperate drinker. When one drop enters my body, the physical craving starts, an insatiable craving that nothing fixes than alcohol. One was too many, a thousand not enough.

I drank when times were good bad and indifferent. I drank when I was happy, sad, depressed, thrilled, bored, whatever. Once I started, I couldn't stop.

Do I think the drink and drugs are bad? The drink, no. For alcoholics with the physical allergy, well, yes, I think the drink is bad, for us. I don't understand normies. I don't understand having half a beer and stopping. I can't wrap my mind around that. But for those who can drink liek that, my hat is off to them.

Drugs, I never did. I did pot if it was there, but didn't take to it. The other stuff, I was scared of. Do I think they are bad? I can only base my opinion on personal experience, and I had a dear friend die from one line of coke mixed with the alcohol in his system from the night before. So, because of that, for me, coke is bad. Other drugs, I have just heard too many horror stories. I never hear, "I do meth recreationally, like once a month, and nothing bad happens." I only hear about people's teeth falling out, or dying, or all those other horror stories.

I don't have any positive experience to base an opinion on fhte "recreational" use of hard drugs. Drugs prescribed by a physician and used rightly, have wonderful medicinal purposes.

Using herbal drugs such as pot or peyote to reach a spiritual plane? Cool! Hehe, if I could manage to do that without sparking my alcohlism, I might just try it.

So, thats my story on the subject. Great thread!

Hugs,
Rayna

Oh PS - Everything in moderation. I actually had water poisoning. Yes, water poisoning. I was sober, but I was drinking so much water, and not anything like gatorade or juices, that the water flushed out all my electrolytes. Its called water toxicity. I am such a good alcoholic, that I actually almost ODed on WATER. Everything in moderation.

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by Malady156

Anyone else it hasn't answered directly please know it did read all responses and thanks you for sharing your views too.


So what criteria generally mark the line where a person has crossed over from "responsible recreational use", lets say, into addiction or the danger of addiction with either drugs or drink? Speaking in terms of stuff like "psychological" addiction since the physical should be obvious to anyone using something that carries that risk -- when you get sick physically because you NEED (physically) the drug or drink, that would be obvious of course that you would be addicted -- and how "bad" (i.e., unhealthy, detrimental to oneself and one's life) would just psychological addiction be as opposed to physical? Would it be possible at all to be just "psychologically" addicted and still lead a productive, functional life or would the two be mutually exclusive in your opinions?

I am classed as an alcoholic because I used and abused alcohol for many yrs. Sometimes when looking for help I would be asked to complete questionaires and the results pointed to Psychological addiction and never physical. I would shake in the morning after a binge, but the shaking wore of and I could go 3 or 4 days without a drink, no shakes, but the psychological craving would build and the only way I could get through the day was to look forward to the treat of the drink.

I attended AA over 6yrs ago and bought into the total abstinance view and when reading conflicting views would find myself feel angry.

I left AA after 2 or 3yrs as I felt it was hindering further personal growth, kept one stuck in their addiction mentality. I Have had issues with codiene in the same was as alcohol in as much as I use it as something to look forward toward to get me through dark days, I guess smokers do this to a degree and is looking forward to a treat so wrong? Well if its looking forward to a favourite wkly TV prog than I guess not, but if its a chemical that actually does harm my body than yes, plus as I used and or looked forward to the treat of using was I completely emotionally available to my family? NOPE!, so the shakes and tremors didn't matter its the emotional availablity that matters. Can I drink alcohol recreationally? Nope I don't think I can, I think I could do it a couple of times but then the 3rd time I'd go over the top again, why can't I use self disipline to not do that? I don't know, deep psychological issues at this point hinder that for me, would I be freely stopping when I felt myself getting intoxicated? Or would I just be stopping to prove a point that I can drink "normally"? so it doesn't really matter I supposed both ways point to the fact that I am a "slave" to getting **** faced at this point in time, will at some point in the future my needs have changed and the connection between enjoying a alcoholic drink and needing it change?? I don't know, but then I have to ask myself, why does it have to be a alcoholic drink that needs to be enjoyed? Theres plenty of non alcoholic options? when I stop obsessing over whether i'm an addict or not I guess is the day I can say, there is no such thing as addiction its all in the mind? I dont know, I'm not saying that I don't believe someone who has previously abused drugs and alcohol could never use them safely again, but I also am not saying that those that have previously abused alcohol and drunk can drink safely again. I think its got to be taken on a case by case senario, some people are more damaged than others and the damage runs so deep that theres not enought yrs in one life to work through the issues to reach a point where using isn't a problem.

[AAAAA]

Some people are unable to use these things responsibly. I personally avoid alcohol because of all of the damage it has caused members of my family. I know that there are people that can go out and have a drink or two and still be responsible.

But you have to admit that these things lower inhabitions and alter the decision making process. I personally don't like to see parents with young children drinking. When you have children, particularly small children, and you are responsible for their safety you need to keep all of your wits about you.

[Malady156]

Say Rayna how did you get that dynamic-updating text to show in your signature? It tried getting the widget but didn't work -- all it could get bes javascript code and it won't render on here.

It bes trying to quit the cigs so it wanted one for that.

[Raynaadi]

Oh gosh, I put that on here so long ago. I don't remember. I've since gone blind, and my screenreader won't even read it haha. You say you got the html code? Did you try copying and pasting into your signature field in your profile? If I remember right, I had to delete anything else I had in my dignature field, as the widget took up all the room.

Congrats on quitting smoking!! Oh, there are other counters too, you can try searching for "count up timers".


How much time does my counter read now?

[Malady156]

Originally Posted by Raynaadi

Oh gosh, I put that on here so long ago. I don't remember. I've since gone blind, and my screenreader won't even read it haha. You say you got the html code? Did you try copying and pasting into your signature field in your profile? If I remember right, I had to delete anything else I had in my dignature field, as the widget took up all the room.

Congrats on quitting smoking!! Oh, there are other counters too, you can try searching for "count up timers".


How much time does my counter read now?

Like 1511 days and change. What does it say in your signature file, does it use javascript? you might have an older version of the counter that used something else? not sure.

[Raynaadi]

I'll post the code, just copied it, I'll throw in some spacers so it will post the code and not the widget.

<script type="
(space)
text/(space)

javascript" src="

(space)http://widgetserver.com/syndication/...er/InsertPanel.

(space)js?panelId=b0c5c7a5-
(space)
9bfa-4f19-a644-
(space)
908e99e25ce5"></script>

It was all just one big code before I entered the spaces.

[Malady156]

hmm ok maybe it will work then. have to see.