[Hunny]

In my AACOA group I came across a person who states over and over what her birth order is in her family of origin.

In Alanon it states: "leave other philosophies outside of the meeting".

Almost every meeting she quotes something in relationship to this 'birth order philosophy'. And because no one, not even me, has brought it to her attention, when she wants to 'pull rank' she uses it to intimidate and when she is 'put upon' she uses it to cause others to feel sympathy for her.

Philosophical points of view can be valuable in life outside Alanon but in Alanon we call upon 'a power greater than ourself to restore us to sanity'. If all other philosophies and religions and meditative techniques were allowed we'd no longer be Alanon.

Ultimately, until she sees using an outside philosophy, like the birth order philosophy as her lead, the rest of us are stuck listening to her rationale. Her birth order is significant to her and her family of origin, no doubt, but in Alanon we are all anonymous, even our birth order. I find the focus on the 12 steps a better way to live, in the long-run, rather than falling back on the enmeshed family of origin and the birth order philosophy. It is hard to watch and listen to her do it over and over at every meeting but I am finding it hard to bring it to her attention or even if I am supposed to.

Does anyone have any ideas for me?

.

[Perna]

Birth order is a real, scientifically-studied, psychological phenomenon but it's about growing up and the past and she's an adult now, no longer living with her siblings/parents! Tell her good try with how she came to be in an alcoholic family but doesn't apply to how she's going to work through the rest of her life from here on out and that's what you want to hear about. It's a phenomenon that might relate to how she relates to her siblings but is not a predictor of the future or fate!

[Elana05]

Hi Hunny,

I would definitely bring it up. Sounds like it could be helpful for her (and everyone) to hear your viewpoint. You might want to do it very gently, though, since she might be more open to hearing it that way and less likely to get defensive or shut down.

E

[purple_fins]

Yea, while I can see this would be interesting to hear about-- birth order stuff-- I can certainly see where this would not be the place to have a continuous discussion on it.

I would be tempted to ask her if she shares this info with a therapist..... and I'd say something like how counselors like to talk about ones birth order and their past and such.

I'm so not good with "gentle" as far as this kind of thing
I bet you are good at it, maybe you could practice with someone you trust first and say some things and ask them how they would feel....... maybe she doesn't even realize that the topic is really not appropriate for these meeting.

I wish you the best in this situation

fins

Is there a group leader?

[Hunny]

Thank you for your good support here. I really appreciate it. I was hoping to not have to say anything. I am a scaredy-cat.

Perna, I agree with you: "It's a phenomenon that might relate to how she relates to her siblings but is not a predictor of the future or fate!". I hope we can all encourage her in this way and more peace will come to her.

Elana, okay, I'll consider it but only with a gentle manner. I have been able to be direct with her before on other matters so perhaps gentle and direct?

Purple_fins She used to be in the medical field (mental health). Maybe that keeps her from seeking help. Seriously though, I have thought a good counselor might be able to help her with some of this stuff because she is constantly bringing it up. I may try and gently broach the subject with her when we are in a lighter moment.

She reminds me of myself a bit but we don't talk about other helps like counseling in the meetings although I have been open with her about my counseling. She has indicated some trauma in her life but, of course, that is the effect of those affected by the disease of alcoholism so how do I separate this issue out? I can talk to her before a meeting or after though about things other than Alanon, so I may just need to use my courage.

The Byzantine, we are all leaders and all participants according the the Alanon way. Does this actually happen? Sometimes, sometimes not. The relief is that I haven't been able to go for the last three meetings and she is away for most of the summer. It likely is just what I need.

Maybe, I am supposed to drop it or go to another meeting but the only other AACOA is quite a bit further away.

Thanks again,
Hunny

hunny, i'm not sure if it is appropriate or not for you to bring it up. of course in 12-step groups there are pretty strict rules about no crosstalk which means commenting on another's share either during or outside a meeting. it might be good to talk privately with the meeting secretary about it to see if it is appropriate to address. in ACA there is discussion of family roles so it may be she is talking about that. that would be totally okay for her to discuss.

[Hunny]

Bloom,

You are right crosstalk is not allowed at our Alanon Adult Children of Alcoholic's meetings like your ACA meetings but a loving comment can be made within our meeting according to our group conscious. We are also encouraged to speak to each other before or after our meetings or on the phone etc. which sounds somewhat different than ACA, as well. So, these are places where my Alanon Adult Children group may differ from your ACA meeting. Our meeting does not have a secretary although I think other Alanon groups do. I understand it is optional, well and there aren't enough fulltime members, is my guess as well. We do have a leader each week but it does change weekly.

But, you have given me an idea... We do have a topic each week. It is not always predetermined but it can be. Maybe I could ask for the topic to be on 'family roles' or 'older siblings roles, 'middle siblings roles' and/or 'younger siblings roles' or... well the list is endless isn't it? It could even be a topic such as resentment in family roles so that it addresses those issues more deeply felt and would give us all a voice.

Thanks Bloom. Any other comments gratefully received.

Hunny

sorry hunny, i probably wasn't very clear. if i remember correctly, crosstalk can't take place directly after or before a meeting in addition to during the meeting itself. that is to protect people from having others come up to them after a meeting and give advice, comment on their share, etc. they don't discourage people from interacting though--they do encourage it. i guess when people are talking on their own they have to use their own judgment as to how much to say or not say.

i like your idea of making family roles a topic at the meeting for all to share about their own experiences. in ACA i'm not sure if they have a statement about outside philosophies being kept outside the meeting or not. i never had a big book so it could be in one, but i know there wasn't anything in the traditions other than saying ACAs "have no opinion on outside issues". i wonder if your friend has an ACA background and so the focus might be a little different from al-anon adult children meetings. ACA seems to me to have a lot of family systems psychotherapy influencing it so that is probably why i think it seems like it would be ok to talk about. but if your meetings are different then that makes total sense and needs to be respected.

sorry, i don't know if i've been at all helpful! you do sound like you are dealing with it in a sensitive manner so i'm sure it will all get worked out.

[Hunny]

Yes, Bloom, those were my thoughts entirely. She may have had to do a bit of ACA family systems psychotherapy in her mental health background and because it is so interesting and helpful she may be wanting to draw it into the Alanon Adult Children Group or she may be doing it unwittingly.

At first I didn't want to believe she was doing it because it is kind of interesting but it has been going on for well over a year and maybe before that. I'm embarrassed to say I've left it this long.

I've never brought anything up just before or after a meeting so you may be right about the crosstalk at that time too, Bloom. I like to be sensitive as both those times.

Every week we read an Alanon approved table card that has the part about outside philosophies.

Yes, we have the saying about, "no opinions on outside issues" too. On another matter sort of relating to this, I did test the waters by sending out an email to see if there was anyone in my group who wanted to talk about Alanon in relationship with mental health issues in a more one to one way and so far no one has responded one way or the other so I guess I got my answer. I am trying not to take it personally but it is hard at times.

Thanks a lot Bloom for choosing to be open with me here. I'm not fond of 'clubs' of any sort and I've always considered Alanon outside the 'club' idea but every-so-often I get a glimpse of something 'clubish' or dare I say 'cultish' about it and it makes me shrivel a little. I don't think that was ever the original intent though.

Take care,
Hunny

[MissCharlotte]

Hi Hunny,
I have encountered the cross talk problem in an Alanon meeting and not sure what to do either. I think the best is just to ignore it probably but I do like the idea of having meeting topics chosen to meet your needs. Maybe you can ask for a meeting that clarifies the rules of your group and affilliation?

[Hunny]

Miss Charlotte,

Yes, I think I will ignore her. Perhaps she gets her jollies by being noticed and by me buying into it is only causing her to want to do it more. She'll get deflated.

Apparently we may be having a group conscience for the group in the next few weeks. Have you had a group conscience before? If so, how have you found them?

Hunny