Antisocials, psychopaths, and therapy

Would you like me to point you to some literature on the subject? I mean, besides wikipedia...

Thank you.

@ Pegasus... scroll up a couple pages, we have already disagreed about humor/laughing. :P
@ Myers WB!

I almost took a class in grad school from a psychopath who was also a therapist. Thought better of it when it dawned on me that 1 he is older than dirt and more practiced than I was and 2 he had access to all my files and personal information... not smart. He said out right in his classes (ethics no less) that if you wanted a secure income and great s** then treat personality disorders, they never get better and they are easy to get into bed. Most people laugh but I have seen his work... dirty ole man has it made! My guess is that he picked this particular route because he is rather unattractive but as a therapist would have an in and then just work it from there. One must admit that in many ways being a therapist would be a good job fit... as long as you weren't hung up on that ethics stuff. Hmmm... may have to go find some of his books... Now I am curious....

I was reading that thread on the worst thing you've ever done in therapy...I donno, maybe you guys can tell me how realistic this is.

I had an instructor that was really adament about the idea that antisocials could only be cured by being shot. o0; gggrrrr

This instructor said he could know an antisocial from a feeling he got in his gut...they they would just straight up kill your ***, leave the office door open..alla that stuff. I know it varies amoung individuals, what do you guys think...are psychologists blowing this fear outta porportion?

I would like to echo what Omers said about keeping everything down to a dull roar here so that another thread is not locked.

All personal issues between members should be taken up privately via pm. Anymore issues on this thread like what happened here and the team will most likely vote to close the thread and issue warnings.

WE DON'T want to do that! WE WANT ya'll to have conversations that can be constructive/fun/offbeat, whatever and wherever it goes. PLEASE BE COOL (I'm on my knees here people.......begging)

Respectfully,
sabby

Ok from WO.olf Sabby...appreciate the warning.We understand you have a job to do.

This is a great paragraph...want to bookmark it or something
I will have to think about that. In the meantime....have you ever had a therapist in prison? That would be kinda interesting...if your already there, is there anything better to do? (I'm thinking not a lot of people would want to fund something like that...so if you havn't had a therapist in prison/jail (assuming you've been there, my b) would you "want" one...or should I say, go to one?

Thanks!
-obj

Obviously, I don't agree with your instructor's stance on the subject, but I have heard more than a few people, laymen and psychologists alike, express a similar opinion. The internet and some layman's books are good representation of people's attitudes toward antisocials and psychopaths. Take Stout's The Sociopath Next Door for instance... Stout does her absolute best to fill her book with grandiose bull**** that details our "utter depravity". She, however, forgot to add statistics and facts to her fanciful storytelling, instead trying only to scare the holy **** out of you lesser mortals. Dr. Stout believes that antisocials are something akin to if James Bond and Angelina Jolie were to spawn the antichrist, which is more appropriate for Hollywood thrillers than an objective and informative text on psychological disorders. Not to mention a few inaccuracies, most notably how she fails to distinguish between "psychopath" and "antisocial". Stout consistently refers to antisocials as "sociopaths", but the description of these sociopaths is more appropriate for the concept of "psychopathy". Considering how she describes her "sociopaths"... Stout uses the 4% statistic (which is true for antisocial personality), but psychopaths are believed to make up less than 1% of the population. And, considering that Stout is a victims therapist, not a researcher of psychopathy or aspd or even a therapist that treats aspd, I don't think she's a suitable candidate for writing a book on the topic.

Hare's different, though. I almost like Hare. He's better equipped, psychologically, to cope with the cute little antics that are psychopathic behavior. He is, like his patients, detached, sarcastic, and a bit narcissistic. I appreciate that in a doctor, or anyone I have to spend an extended period of time with. Who knows... Maybe his patients rubbed off on him...

As for whether antisocials would "kill ya dead" without a second thought... That's another misconception that goes back to the differences between aspd and psychopathy... Antisocials, and even secondary psychopaths, do experience guilt. They just don't associate that guilt with an immoral act. The feeling of guilt, for them, is constant. As for primary psychopaths, well, that's another story entirely.

By the way, Dr. Stout, if you happen upon this post and object to my rather harsh critique of your work, I'll see you in court.

As for whether antisocials would "kill ya dead" without a second thought... That's another misconception that goes back to the differences between aspd and psychopathy... Antisocials, and even secondary psychopaths, do experience guilt. They just don't associate that guilt with an immoral act. The feeling of guilt, for them, is constant. As for primary psychopaths, well, that's another story entirely.

Guilt is constant?

This might help: http://www.psychforums.com/antisocia...opic58011.html. I had the link to the excerpt itself, but it must've gotten deleted. Sorry.

Each person given the current Axis II diagnosis defined as: Antisocial Personality Disorder is different. I believe some ppl with this diagnosis can feel, guilt, love, empathy etc. but still be pathological enough to be given the label. Disorders ride on a spectrum and are constantly being reevaluated for accuracy.

Labels are a good starting point to clarify issues needed for therapy.

In the end, life is short and the world is vast. And some things cannot be figured out.

Sometimes life comes along and fixes things. What seemed so important and interesting yesterday becomes irrelevant today.

No matter what my issues and disorders may be I need to move forward.

1. Certainly, at times.
2. That, or for the sake of appearance.
3. If I had a therapist who didn't assume I was in the wrong all the time, I would assume s/he was trying to play me.

I would say I generally find other ways to challenge myself than my occupation. But, are we talking about "acceptable" interrogation or Guantanamo Bay-esque interrogation?

haha, acceptable would be more of a challenge, wouldn't it? I donno, sounds like it would be an easy/fun job for those of you who like to mess with therapists and stuff....you would basically be doing the same thing in a way. Just a thought lol. Anyway...wow, you are of few words. I'd like to dig though....what do you mean by
"for the sake of appearance"?

"3. If I had a therapist who didn't assume I was in the wrong all the time, I would assume s/he was trying to play me."

hhmm, play you, like trick you? In what way?

Thanks man, take care,
-obj

In some situations I'd be willing to go to therapy to appear like I'm actively seeking out help. Although with all the talk about therapy around here I'm kind of getting curious about giving it a try and seeing what it's all about these days.

I would assume the person was making some sort of bad attempt at "befriending" me, trying to establish trust or get me to open up or something.
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And here's to you Pegasus.

there is a lovely quote from Karen Horney (don't laugh) being used as a signature in here, that says something like: Life is still the best therapy.... i love that quote...

too cute, Mike~ and the sign is cute, too~

I still stick to the idea that therapy is nothing more than manipulation towards an "agreed upon" (as vague as it is when one enters therapy) goal. I also believe that most everyone who enters therapy (either as a career or as a client) have other motivations as well. Currently the goal on the table between my T and I is to increase my level of functioning given the autism. However, given past experience I know that my therapists primary goal is to get paid. Helping me, like it or not, is secondary to getting paid. My primary goal is to gain access into the "class"/group of people she belongs to (ultimately to find a partner). It is a group of people that I am currently unable to navigate with the success and outcomes I would like. I can say that if she were an ugly middle class woman with a mere masters degree I would not be in therapy (at least not with her). I know for d* sure if I could not pay her an upper class salary (north of $100/hr as opposed to the $35/hr of other therapists around here) she would not be willing to work with me as it would not support her "lifestyle". So... does that make us psychopaths or just more honest about our motives?

Are you suggesting psychopaths are incapable of being honest in all circumstances?

Dunno, I usually am... but the verdict is still out.

Oh, oops... almost missed a Kant moment... I am SO slipping!
A lie can not be universal law (told all the time) because if it were it would no longer work as one would always be distrustful. So... Truths must, by human nature, be sprinkled in with the lies to keep them believable. My guess is that Skinner from the realm of psychological conditioning would also agree to a variable reinforcement schedule for believing that included some truths in with the lies.

Ok... back to my nap.

[quote=AlphaMikeFoxtrot;1693853]In some situations I'd be willing to go to therapy to appear like I'm actively seeking out help. Although with all the talk about therapy around here I'm kind of getting curious about giving it a try and seeing what it's all about these days.

If you do decide to get therapy, I hope you are able to find "a good one", lol, from this forum alone I am hearing more about awful therapists, not clients.

I would assume the person was making some sort of bad attempt at "befriending" me, trying to establish trust or get me to open up or something.

Okay, that's good for me to note; I wouldn't straight out be like "you never did anything wrong" I just believe in starting with a blank slate. Who wants to work with someone who makes one feel incriminated? Do you have any additional thoughts on establishing trust or opening up in therapy?

This may be redundant, but it's a question that can be answered differently depending on the person...so what is the worst case scenerio that could come from opening up, and other things relating to trust?

Thanks,
-obj

Have you ever talked with your T about this aspect of your treatment? Therapy can get ridiculous...that feeling of "why would some stranger actually truly care about me"...then of course you have to care about them caring to be able to care about that
I donno; I hope that's something you are able to bring up to your T, cuz that could affect the "theraputic relationship"...I can see how just using that term could open up a new can of worms lol. To answer that question at the end...I know that the more honest with myself I am in therapy, the better and faster I work through my crap. Scrolling down and reading other posts...lying does come up; I seriously don't see how you can lie to a true analyst lol, because the analyst is suppossed to hold your emotions for you, be like a mirrior...and it's bias (don't quote me on this) is to help you get to know yourself better. I think if you with-hold the truth in therapy, it is resistance, something threatening. I am not knowing...lol

Take it easy,
-obj

Worst case senerios...
One T was a big part of my getting thrown out of grad school. Another coached me into getting attacked by my supervisor. One told me that I was the reason my mother wanted to die. Yeh, therapists suck... at least most of the ones I have encountered. Of the 9 therapists I have worked with 1 was too stupid to do harm... of the remaining 8 only 2 managed to not do more harm than good. None of the therapists I have worked with could deal with the psychopathic type aspects of me.

it doesn't take a psychopath to figure out that everyone has motives,, people work for money,, and even children lie to look good and/or avoid punishment... geez,, somebody pop the cork on that bottle of delusion and lets all have some fun~!

My instructor talked about supervisors that were not exactly theraputic...I wonder what the extent of it is; I definitly was not as aware of "corrupt" therapists until I got to this forum. Personally, I can't see a psychologist (who actually wants to help people) as in it for the motive of money...that should be a secondary concern I would think.

im not antisocial or a psychopath but this subject is so damn interesting to me. my good conscience wouldnt allow me to constantly lie to people but i think if i was manipulative i would be damn good at it. lol. i have a question: how can you have friendships or create lasting relationships if your a psychopath?

That's an excellent question. I have no idea.