Something off about niece...

My wife & - and some of our other family members - feel that our 8 year old niece seems to have at minimum a personality disorder. We wonder if she could even be a sociopath?

She doesn't have empathy for anyone, is very manipulative, only talks to us if its an occasion where she's going to receive a present from us or to ask us if she can have something of ours (once when we said no, it was something we use, she asked if she could have it after we died and I got a chill!) We've always been generous with our nieces, but it's never enough with her. I had hoped that she was just going through a phase and once she started school, her behavior would improve, but it hasn't. When I hit my head painfully a few weeks ago and was telling her parents about it, she asked if I would do it again so see could see!

Her parents are very nice people. They make excuses for her. I don't know if they realize how rude she is to people (including them). Our other family members think its partly because they are too lax in their parenting. That may be so, but I'm just concerned about what we should do to help the situation. Should we say something to her parents? Could we send them something anonymously so as to not jeopardize our relationship, but to make sure they are aware of their daughter's behavior and can seek help for it? I keep hoping maybe I'm making too big of a deal about it or that its within normal behavioral limits for someone her age (though we've been around a lot of children & none have consistently acted so narcissistic and un-empathetic - it's not that she's just having a bad day). I feel guilty, but we really can't stand to be around her. I'm leaving out countless examples of her rude behavior. She seems to have the emotional development of a 2 or 3 year old. She's only 8, but when is the right time to seek help for personality problems? She doesn't seem to be growing out of it. I'm worried about her future. Thank you for your advice.

(I'm speaking from a teacher-perspective here - I teach 9 year olds).

She sounds like a rather spoiled and immature person, but I wouldn't start labelling her right now. I also wouldn't voice my concerns to her parents, unless you saw some violent tendencies towards other people or animals.

As her uncle, I would try to model empathy to her. I really try to build up the empathy in my students because it is lacking in a lot of them. Unfortunately, I think that our society has turned a lot of parents into enablers who think they can't be a good parent if they don't give in to their children - which doesn't do anyone any good in the long wrong! Perhaps your sibling(in-law?) has fallen into that category? On the other side, a lot of our society (and you see it a loooot in children's programming) encourages children to have the perspective that they should be able to get whatever they want and that by being selfish they can get it. (What gross generalizations I'm sharing! But they might be possible influences on your niece).

A lot of my students find it very difficult to discuss their feelings, and a good chunk of them have difficulty relating to other people's feelings - if they aren't in tune with their own, how can we expect them to take others' into consideration? I therefore make sure I verbalize my own emotions regularly and we talk about how to handle various emotions - and I make sure to model respectful behaviour when I'm upset or want something a certain way. You would be surprised how many of my students are shocked and unsure how to handle an adult talking openly about their emotions.

I would suggest modelling empathy to her. Select things to watch or read with her that would give good learning opportunities. Even when you're out somewhere and if you notice something "Oh, do you see that baby crying? I wonder why they're crying, what do you think they're crying about?" and then whatever your niece answers go "Yeah, that might make me cry too - I wouldn't feel very happy if that happened, would you?" or "Would you cry if that happened?" or just respond in a way to either encourage a possible answer, or encourage her to think about it further if she is way off base.

Or if she tries to demand something of yours, turn it around on her. "What if I took your favourite doll? How would you feel about that?" Most likely she'd say she would be angry or something negative. Then go "Well, how do you think I feel then when you want to take this when it is mine?". If she responded with saying that she'd be happy or quite ok with trading or giving it to you, then follow through. Go and get it. Thank her for the generosity and explain that it's really very kind of her to be so willing to give her favourite thing away. Actually go and get it and you'll find out if she's just saying it or if she's honest. If she's honest, then go ahead and take it to your vehicle or keep it until you see her next - if she really is alright with you having it, then give it back later on and thank her so much for being so kind! If she freaks out then call her on it.

Anyway. Those are just a few suggestions on how you could start to address the behaviour with her on your own. Don't label her a narcissist or sociopath yet - children are notorious for being self-absorbed and they grow out of it at different ages!

I really find it worrying that a child acting within normal parameters for their age gets so easily assumed to have something wrong with her.

Her personality is still developing therefore she will not have a diagnosable personality disorder.

It's frankly incredibly alarming that you and your family have labelled such a young child, it certainly speaks volumes.

I think what you are describing is very concerning. I would start with some direct questions of the niece as the opportunity comes up, modeling empathy is good, and you probably already do that; but asking her how she feels when someone else gets hurt, or what makes her feel sad, who she relates to, getting clues as to how she sees the world can happen in general conversation. If you are comfortable, it would not be bad to talk with her parents, just to find out, for instance, if there are problems outside of home (school, with peers)....hold of on the labeling, but as a nurse with lots of psych experience, I can say I have met (and was initially shocked to realize) young children with clear, acted on, personality disorders/other problems. She may have some other problem that this behavior "protects" her from.....
If she has friends, does ok at school, and her peers generally like her it's more likely something specific to family/her perceptions

While I agree that one shouldn't label young children needlessly, I think you might be jumping to conclusions. OP states that she doesn't take this matter lightly and that she has left out a lot of examples about her niece's behavior. There is cause for alarm here and I think we should assume OP is trying to help, which is commendable.

One huge older study found the best predictor of children ending up in the criminal justice system or mental health system with serious problems was the opinion of young peers. (I believe this study went on for more than 40yrs and is out of ....Sweden I think)
Much more accurate than what parents, teachers, other adults, or tests.
(eg. who was seen consistently as a bully etc))

winter - totally! Only peers really ever see someone showing their overall personality. We're likely to behave and try to impress people in authority, and we're more likely to take advantage of/abuse our families. And in both of those situations, people are certainly more likely to try to not get caught!

"I would suggest modelling empathy to her. Select things to watch or read with her that would give good learning opportunities. Even when you're out somewhere and if you notice something "Oh, do you see that baby crying? I wonder why they're crying, what do you think they're crying about?" and then whatever your niece answers go "Yeah, that might make me cry too - I wouldn't feel very happy if that happened, would you?" or "Would you cry if that happened?" or just respond in a way to either encourage a possible answer, or encourage her to think about it further if she is way off base."

Thank you - great advice. We will do that. We want to help her (I worry that her life will be a lonely and difficult one if she can't relate to other people), but weren't sure how. When she was younger, we would give her Sesame Street books about manners and sharing and feelings, but I realize that we can do better.

We don't want to label her. We want to help her. We've only talked about it with another family member to try to figure out what to do and to confirm that it wasn't just us who noticed this and that it was beyond normal childhood behavior. Her parents (who we adore) make excuses because they are probably embarrassed. I've seen them try to discipline her, but it doesn't seem to have an effect. They've mentioned they've taken parenting classes.

Have you seen the movie "We need to talk about Kevin?" That's extreme, but I'm worried that something could be - I don't want to say "wrong" but I don't know how else to put it - with her and that it's only going to get worse if we keep ignoring it. Her older sister would often say things to people she just met like "I don't like you" and "why is your butt so big?" when she was really young (things kids might blurt out) but once she started school, she made friends and has developed social skills. I had hoped the same changes would occur in the younger sister, but they haven't seemed to. I wasn't worried about her older sister, but just noticed the pleasant change. We have many other nieces and nephews and appreciate their quirks and individuality and realize they are children and people and have bad days and moments and aren't perfect. I came here to get some advice because I'm afraid she may need help. I worry if we continue to ignore or make excuses for her, she's going to have a lot of problems in the future. I like the modeling empathy approach and will try it (I hope we've modeled empathy without trying all her life, but we'll really focus on it now). I hope you're right. I hope nothing is wrong with her.

That's interesting and very likely. She doesn't have friends (except for 1 neighbor girl who she says she hates and tries to avoid - if that can be considered a friend?). She bullies and blames her other cousins (even those who are older than her). I guess I'm so surprised at how rude she can be with adults (when she's not clearly being manipulative), because most kids are very pleasant with us (as we're the Aunt & Uncle & not the parents). We were at a party for someone else the other day and she asked if she could have something I bought the birthday girl (it's unnerving how she is always asking us for things - it's more than most kids and we're generous with her. I guess at least she's asking and not just taking?). I said that I bought it for the birthday girl (X) and that I thought X would really like it. She said, "you think or you know?" ??? And then went on about how she wanted it and had a fit when I gave it to X. I know kids get jealous, but she's 8, not 4 or even 6.

That's what's so weird - except for the times she's being manipulatively sweet (the day of her birthday or Christmas) (& I realize children & people are reflexively nicer when they know you're going to give them a present - I know that's human, but with her it's so extreme Jekyll and Hyde - it's creepy), she doesn't try to impress people in authority. I don't know. Her cousins don't like being around her either.

I'd also take a more blunt approach - but again, I do this with my students really. I'm very honest with them. I don't get students asking me for actual things, but they do like to try to ask for favours or to be the first to get to do something or whatever it is that they all seem to like doing... and my response is always "I don't take requests!" and then I will almost always offer it to someone else. I find it is insanely important for me to be consistent with them - and the rule is we don't ask me for things like being first in line or whatnot because it's silly and I will never remember anyway!

With that birthday story, in a way to be both blunt and to help encourage her to think about others, I would have probably gone "How would you feel if I gave one of your birthday presents away to another kid?" or "How would you feel if I didn't give you a present and you didn't know why?". And after she responds (I'd guess she'd respond by saying something about how that wouldn't be a good feeling) I'd go "Then you need to stop being selfish and think about X because it is HER birthday today and not yours. You don't get presents on someone else's birthday and I do not appreciate you being disrespectful like that."

Yes, that might sound like rather grown-up language... and it even sounds harsh. But, it's honest and it's direct and that is ultimately easier for them to understand than anything that comes out sugar-coated. It explains to her that her behaviour is unacceptable, WHY it is unacceptable, it re-explains the empathy that she's lacking, and it is demonstrating your own feelings about her behaviour.

There are people who lack empathy, and who do not develop an internal sense of 'right' and 'wrong' --- this girl does want something, need something, the behavior you describe is like a primitive scream-in-your-face for Help......she must feel, at some level, out of control and uncontrollable and that is not a good feeling---so, I would also say, do not be afraid to set and stick to some limits behaviorally, but you'll need to be creative so that you do not set yourself up by choosing consequences that you cannot adhere to--------------also, I don't think it would be bad at all to say things to her such as "When you do___________(be specific), I feel________."; basically informing her, in a matter of fact manner, that her behavior has consequences (natural consequences.....when someone asks for something, it is okay to say no....and mean it; if someone is rude it is okay to state to them that they are being rude and describing to them what that means.................)

"Recent studies have revealed what appear to be significant anatomical differences in the brains of adolescent children who scored high on the youth version of the Psychopathy Checklist — an indication that the trait may be innate. Another study, which tracked the psychological development of 3,000 children over a period of 25 years, found that signs of psychopathy could be detected in children as young as 3. A small but growing number of psychologists, Dadds and Waschbusch among them, say that confronting the problem earlier may present an opportunity to help these children change course."

I don't know if this will help you, or if you would even want to hear from me, nevertheless I will relate my life in brief.

My parents were quite strict, I was monitored at all times and made to be accountable for my actions and words. I believe this saved me from being a criminal, perhaps even a killer.

I have the core traits of a psychopath and yet I have not been arrested, nor have I commited crimes. I know what to do in my life. This does not mean that I think like other people or have a range of feelings like other people. But I have had a near normal life even a good life.

I was fortunate to have stopped all drugs and alchohol at age 24. This largely explains why I have been able to use my mind to over ride my tendencies to ignore social and legal norms and I have not hurt people or animals. I am rarely verbally mean and my husband and children say they know I love them.

I am sure, detected early, acted out psychopathology may very well be relieved.

I'm 63 years old now, so I grew up when parenting was much stricter and unflexible. My Mother was at home full time and grandparents also had a large part in my early and teen life.

I cant tell you how grateful I am for the help I got when my parents wouldnt put up with lies and bad behavior and then the support and help I got to quit drinking alcholically. I feel sure I could have been imprisoned for life several times had I not had people who cared enough to see what they could make of me while I was still young.

I wish all the best to your niece and to you for taking actions of love for her sake.