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Default Jul 07, 2021 at 08:32 AM
  #301
@hvert yes there are differing reports 're effectiveness it's hard to know what to believe. I think it may be complicated by the fact some studies measure effectiveness as getting any infection even if mild and others talk about measurement of severe symptoms.

're your family member, that must be concerning for you. It's not probably going to be wise to try to convince him from what you say? Needle phobia is a very common issue - my sister volunteered at a vaccination centre and there were quite a few faints etc. Best idea is not to look at the needle going in but if you do (I did!) you see it is super fine and that's why most people don't feel it.

I guess if he seems willing to talk about his fears you could open a dialogue with him? Just to explore his thoughts and concerns. Maybe that might help him think differently as you talk it through, but it's a toughie definitely. Hugs!
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Default Jul 07, 2021 at 08:39 AM
  #302
So things are evolving even more here.... Now we are told no need to isolate if you are double vaccinated from 16th August. Which I can understand (isolating is causing major chaos in work places and transmission is rare in vaccinated) but they are also saying unvaccinated under 18s no need to isolate from then either which seems like the equivalent of saying the want kids to get it spread it and develop natural immunity? Except no one has said this outright. I feel like government is not being honest with us.

The British Medical association have spoken out against the plans and many Drs are not in agreement with it either.
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Default Jul 07, 2021 at 10:40 AM
  #303
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I'm feeling the 'have fun now' pressure because I am worried about restrictions coming back when Delta starts spreading like crazy here.


There are so many conflicting reports. I saw the articles @Discombobulated mentioned about mRNA providing long-lasting immunity, even against Delta, no boosters required. Then the other day I saw that Pfizer seems 64% effective against Delta. Singapore came out with a similar report (and has mostly used mRNA). Is immunity waning or is Delta different enough or some combination of the two? Why are those results so different from the study that showed long lasting immunity?

I am also worried because a close family member will not get vaccinated. He suggests it's due to conspiracy theory type reasons, but I believe it's really due to needle phobia. I don't know how to convince him.

@rechu I am impressed the chief of staff is resigning! This pandemic has shown how the rich and powerful live very different lives compared to the rest of us. A US conservative Christian conference sounds like a super spreader event. If they don't even care about exposing their own baby to that, they couldn't care anything about the health of strangers. I was interested to see articles this morning stating that the Russian Orthodox church is strongly encouraging the vaccine.
@hvert,

The needle is incredible thin and no painful at all.
The problem is that he has already probably seen on TV the fact of the injections being administrated and if he already has a problem with needles is more than enough for him.
I would do what @Discombobulated told you. Supporting him. Accompany him. I’m sure they won’t put you any problem in doing it if you explain it and then, if he cannot get it. It’s ok. No matter. Let him know that it’s not a problem. He has a justification.

You, guys, in the States, will probably reach herd immunity soon. I guess people who have trouble with needles have a justification.

Ask him only for giving the step to go although maybe he feels embarrassed if he can’t get it. I also can understand it.

In cases like this I completely excuse people who can’t face to be vaccinated. As much as we may see it as even less than a mosquito’s bite, for them is like a torture.

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Default Jul 07, 2021 at 12:31 PM
  #304
Yeah, I think it is hard to fully pinpoint the efficacy of each vaccine. They were often tested on different populations, different conditions. Some accounted for mild or asymptomatic infection, others not. The ones tested later had more variants to contend with, etc.

I know that there was a much hailed study about Sinovac done on Indonesian doctors that found it over 90% effective against hospitalization and death. It turns out that they were only followed over 28 days after being fully vaccinated. I don't think that tells you much since people often get progressively worse and end up hospitalized. If you got infected on day 21 of the study you may end up hospitalized or dead after day 28. Now, a few months later, many Indonesian doctors that got Sinovac have died. It's being attributed to the Delta variant, but the vaccine was probably never over 90% effective in the first place.

I think the chief of staff staying was too much of a liability. There's no smoking gun, but the Interior Ministry is the government entity that approves travel. I am sure there were no e-mails or calls through official channels, but they had other ways to contact each other.

The government has had so many gaffes and "let them eat cake" moments in their handling of the pandemic, where they show they do not understand how their policies are impacting normal people while the priviliged do what they want with few consequences. They couldn't do nothing this time. This is the second time they lied about the circumstances of someone bringing in the Delta variant and eventually had to correct themselves. People are losing patience again.


Super-spreader event is right. Apparently the parents are anti-vaxxers as well. If what I have read is correct, the father has been identified. He's an evangelical pastor. He also ran to be a member of the convention that is going to rewrite the constitution. He lost, though.
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Default Jul 08, 2021 at 10:24 AM
  #305
Meanwhile in the Netherlands......

The government is *considering* closing clubs again because the nr of cases is rising like crazy. They're on their way to going back on red for the rest of Europe.

A number of clubs has already decided to close, all on their own, because clubs have shown to be a source of infections. They have decided to lose their income for safety, yet the government is still thinking about it Seriously how stupid are they?

(For some numbers:
Positive test Friday last week: less than 1.000
Positive tests today: almost 5.500 )

I'm glad I got my vaccination so I don't have to quarantine when I come back to Germany in a few weeks, even if NL are on red.

Last edited by BreakForTheLight; Jul 08, 2021 at 10:46 AM..
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Default Jul 08, 2021 at 11:16 AM
  #306
@BreakForTheLight what's happening in NL should sound a warning to the UK - but sadly our government won't take heed.

Some UK figures here:

Daily infections 32,551 (up 4,562 from last Thursday)

Daily hospitalizations 2,636 (up 831 from last Thursday)

Daily deaths 35 (up 13 from last Thursday)

Weekly deaths are 174 up 52.6% from the week before.

Yet in 2 weeks they are lifting all restrictions including face coverings in shops and transport??
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Default Jul 08, 2021 at 11:40 AM
  #307
Here we have 3,193 new cases and 186 deaths in the latest report. Cases are well off the 8,000 per day in April and May, but the deaths are not really budging. I know they are a lagging indicator, but they should show some sign of moving downwards by now, you would think. So far in July, there have been 926 deaths, which is a lot worse than the UK.

It is interesting the divide that seems to be opening up between governments that want to reach zero Covid and those that decide that the virus is going to be something we have to live with. Here the Medical College proposed a zero Covid plan but the government rejected it. Today, they are going to announce a new tiered system that supposedly will give more freedom to the vaccinated and open up schools. I guess New Zealand is the other extreme. I read that they want to build a government isolation facility for cases and continue to implement lockdowns for the forseeable future. I guess we will see in time how each strategy plays out.

Active cases seem to be fizzling out a bit in our region. Our average cases are down 45% over the last 14 days, Brazil is down 35% and Paraguay 26%. We are out of the top 10 worldwide in active cases per 100,000 finally. Interestingly, Brazil and Paraguay have vaccinated a much lower percentage of the population than we have but are still seeing significant declines. I guess the high level of natural infections means that there are fewer hosts to attack. Argentina and Colombia are still pretty high but showing single-digit declines over the last 2 weeks. I think this wave started later in Colombia. I hope the downward trend keeps up in this part of the world.
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Default Jul 08, 2021 at 03:47 PM
  #308
You guys are freaking me out. Delta must not be here yet - they said we had a few cases of it a couple of weeks ago but it must not be widespread because we are still having low case counts and apparently hit a milestone by having the lowest % positive tests since this started. I come here and read the numbers and see that this can change in a heartbeat. Our cases now are still higher than they were at this time last year. When the kids go back to school in the fall, will it sky rocket again?


One thing they've mentioned where I live is that the outbreaks and hospitalizations are happening in the unvaccinated enclaves. Are clubs in NL a problem because the people who go are young and not able to get the vaccine yet?


I don't think I will be able to convince my relative to get vaccinated. He hasn't come out and said that he doesn't want it because of needles so I don't have an opening to comment on ways to work around that. I also think just mentioning needles will make him queasy. I saw him yesterday but didn't bring it up.


Did you all see the birthday party study? It proves that small social gatherings are a major contributor to spread. Assessing the Association Between Social Gatherings and COVID-19 Risk Using Birthdays | Public Health | JAMA Internal Medicine | JAMA Network
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Default Jul 09, 2021 at 09:27 AM
  #309
hvert - I have heard similar here. Gatherings at home indoors seem to be the cause of a lot of cases.

Well, this is big. A Health Ministry employee denounced the Health Minister and one of his assistants for attending a party with 30 people at the Ministry, when gatherings of over 5 people are not permitted. It seems unlikely that this is made up, since the employee would be risking their job if they lied about it. His minion, the Undersecretary said that he just stopped by to say hi to a few people. Probably another lie. And, if he had come across a party, as an authority of the Ministry, he would have been required to report it. Will he please resign now?

I always suspected that the top authorities who are supposedly so pained about putting us under these restrictions were secretly not following the rules themselves. I imagined it would come out eventually. Between this and the incidents with the people bringing Delta into the country, the cracks are showing.
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Default Jul 09, 2021 at 11:08 AM
  #310
That makes sense hvert, does anyone remember measles parties when people used to deliberately hold parties to infect children with measles?

It's over 35,000 daily cases today.

Delta makes up 99% of cases now, yes it's much more transmissible but like you say Hvert it's mostly unvaccinated who are at risk. Here the children have been in schools since March so that is a big source of infection.

I got told today if you get a negative test you don't have to do the full 10 days isolation anymore after contact with an infected person. I wasn't aware of that. I'm confused by changing rules. I think many people are.

I met with 2 friends for lunch today, we all did negative lateral flow tests yesterday so it felt as safe as possible. It was so nice just relaxing together.
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Default Jul 09, 2021 at 02:24 PM
  #311
Yeah, the changing rules make everyone's head spin, I think. Here too, the new plan they announced is a huge mess. Different capacities allowed for people in places like restaurants and theaters depending on whether or not they are vaccinated. Gyms can open from phase two on, also with similar restrictions.

I don't see there is any way that all this can be enforced. I guess each business will have to try and do it on their own. But, what happens if someone refuses to show proof of vaccine? I know security guards in the US had issues when they told customers they needed to wear a mask. I know there were even cases of physical aggression and I think I remember hearing that one guard was shot over a mask mandate. I am not sure if we would see that here, but it seems possible.

10 more confirmed Delta cases came in through the supposedly closed borders.
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Default Jul 09, 2021 at 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hvert View Post
You guys are freaking me out. Delta must not be here yet - they said we had a few cases of it a couple of weeks ago but it must not be widespread because we are still having low case counts and apparently hit a milestone by having the lowest % positive tests since this started. I come here and read the numbers and see that this can change in a heartbeat. Our cases now are still higher than they were at this time last year. When the kids go back to school in the fall, will it sky rocket again?


One thing they've mentioned where I live is that the outbreaks and hospitalizations are happening in the unvaccinated enclaves. Are clubs in NL a problem because the people who go are young and not able to get the vaccine yet?


I don't think I will be able to convince my relative to get vaccinated. He hasn't come out and said that he doesn't want it because of needles so I don't have an opening to comment on ways to work around that. I also think just mentioning needles will make him queasy. I saw him yesterday but didn't bring it up.


Did you all see the birthday party study? It proves that small social gatherings are a major contributor to spread. Assessing the Association Between Social Gatherings and COVID-19 Risk Using Birthdays | Public Health | JAMA Internal Medicine | JAMA Network
You are way ahead of us with vaccinations.

In NL is was definitely young, unvaccinated people getting infected at clubs. Or people who'd had their shot but didn't built protection yet because they were allowed to go out immediately after. It was a thing, "Dansen met Janssen" (dancing with J&J). Now they've realised they made a huge mistake and decided people do need to wait 2 weeks after getting the vaccine.
And clubs have to close again. But not until tomorrow. There is no logic.

Supposedly delta is more contagious but less deadly.

Last edited by BreakForTheLight; Jul 09, 2021 at 02:44 PM..
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Default Jul 09, 2021 at 08:51 PM
  #313
Here the same, Break.
We now are at the top of the most risky zones in Europe. Germans advised their citizens not coming here.
Noone is taking decisions. Only scientists and experts are advising about the consequences. And here we are on the fifth wave of the pandemia. And I’m afraid of the new possible restrictions. Late and bad, as always, to try to diminish greater problems. 🙄

Can you believe that yesterday when I got into a shop, the shop workers had to tell a man that he had to put the mask on. Still.
I wonder which planet this person is coming from.

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Default Jul 11, 2021 at 07:07 AM
  #314
I think more than one person in the US was shot or killed due to an attempt to enforce Covid rules. So ridiculous that retail employees were stuck enforcing unpopular mandates. Many businesses told their employees NOT to enforce rules, just like they say to let the robbers have whatever they want. It's not worth risking your life to confront someone in these cases.


That is nuts about the health minister and the 30 person party. I wonder if he will be ousted?


Apparently my state is not doing widespread testing for Delta because the test is in short supply and is too expensive. Random sampling done by hospitals suggests 40% of patients have Delta. The most shocking statistic is that the majority of patients seeking Covid treatment at hospitals now require ICU care. They are mostly unvaccinated and unfortunately in rural areas where the hospitals aren't very good or plentiful. They are younger and slimmer than the people who were hospitalized in earlier waves.

@AzulOscuro you are on an island, right? It seems in many places (like where I live) the tourism industry's interests won out over public health interests.
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Default Jul 11, 2021 at 12:28 PM
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It is sad that the retail workers have to be the ones to risk enforcing these things, especially for probably a bit more than minimum wage. Here, the two main supermarkets we go to in town have the security guards checking for permits/mobility passes when we have been in the stricter lockdown phases. They also check temperatures and make sure people are wearing a mask. I haven't seen or heard of any issues here, but people here are more laid back than in urban areas. My husband has gone a few times into Santiago and said there were fewer checks than here - maybe to avoid problems for the employees? I can imagine there being some incidents in the, let's say, rougher neighborhoods of the capital.

I have thought the Minister and his staff all need to go for a while. But, now with all these latest gaffes related to the Delta variant and now the party there are more calls for them to resign or be fired. If the party is true, he can't stay and the Undersecretary should go too. Now there are accusations of a second party at the Ministry during full lockdown, which the Undersecretary also attended. How can they have any authority to impose all these restrictions on the rest of us when they don't follow them?

The government spokesperson came out to say that if they did exceed the number of people permitted at gatherings, it's okay because as a Ministry they are not subject to the same restrictions as people in their homes. That guy is probably lying again since that is all they do. No one has presented any documentation to back up this exception to the rule. Just like when they couldn't document how a woman was allowed to quarantine for only one day due to a humanitarian exception. I wonder how people like that stay in their jobs sometimes. I would feel morally bankrupt and dirty defending this government all the time. The spokesperson actually lives in our town and gave up his congressional seat representing our area to take the job. I wonder if he regrets it, because now he will not be able to get the stench of this government off him if he wants to run for office again.


Already the guy that reads the noon news on one of the main channels here lost his job after attending a clandestine party. Two District Attorneys were also fired for getting a restaurant to open up for them in lockdown. The logic was how can the news guy have any legitimacy reporting on people being busted at parties when he has done the same? Similarly, how can the DAs represent the law when they don't follow the health code? Being that we are now talking about the highest-level health figures that have the power to confine us in hour own homes, and they don't follow the rules, I don't think they can stay. The allegations are currently being investigated.

@BreakThroughTheLight, I just saw this article about the Netherlands. They are saying that hospitalizations aren't up yet, but that is always a lagging indicator. I wonder what things will look like in a few weeks as far as the hospital system.:


Coronavirus cases in the Netherlands surge more than 800% in one week - BNO News
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Default Jul 11, 2021 at 05:10 PM
  #316
More than 800% is insane. And they're still staying away from face masks and other measures

But after all my complaining, I'm gonna post something positive. I went to my first concert in 1,5 years and I had an amazing time It was all very safe, everyone had their own "bubble", it was outdoors, people wore masks when leaving their bubble - even though it isn't required anymore outside.
At first it was a little weird, the crowd being so spread out. Me, the extreme introvert who always complains about people getting too close, missing standing in a crowd But the band were so happy to be on stage, it was a lot of fun! Not quite the same energy.... but maybe I'll actually get some sleep tonight (Usually after concerts I'm tossing and turning until 4 or 5 AM)
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Default Jul 11, 2021 at 06:58 PM
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The concert sounds awesome!!
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Default Jul 14, 2021 at 01:27 PM
  #318
If we can believe the government (which is of course debatable) we have the best numbers reported today 3.6% positivity and 1,227 new cases. My municipality is finally under 100 active cases. Of course the Health Minister and his minions stomped on any chance that this will lead to reducing restrictions, saying we are not going to be like Europe and open up too much. So, stuck in phase 2 we are.
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Default Jul 14, 2021 at 03:03 PM
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I hope cases stay low @rechu it doesn't sound like you have significant delta infection.

Over 42,000 cases today, they are predicting 100,000 a day in this wave. It looks to me like they're trying to purposefully bring it on ahead of winter.

London transport have insisted face coverings will still be mandatory but who knows about everywhere else. My employer (major retailer) is yet to issue a statement, along with the majority of retailers. I know the union is pushing for face coverings to stay.

The government are saying face coverings will no longer be mandatory but people should still wear them!
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Default Jul 14, 2021 at 07:00 PM
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I think more than one person in the US was shot or killed due to an attempt to enforce Covid rules. So ridiculous that retail employees were stuck enforcing unpopular mandates. Many businesses told their employees NOT to enforce rules, just like they say to let the robbers have whatever they want. It's not worth risking your life to confront someone in these cases.


That is nuts about the health minister and the 30 person party. I wonder if he will be ousted?


Apparently my state is not doing widespread testing for Delta because the test is in short supply and is too expensive. Random sampling done by hospitals suggests 40% of patients have Delta. The most shocking statistic is that the majority of patients seeking Covid treatment at hospitals now require ICU care. They are mostly unvaccinated and unfortunately in rural areas where the hospitals aren't very good or plentiful. They are younger and slimmer than the people who were hospitalized in earlier waves.

@AzulOscuro you are on an island, right? It seems in many places (like where I live) the tourism industry's interests won out over public health interests.
I don’t live in the archipelagos of Spain. I live in the peninsula but nonetheless, tourist industry is very important for the entire country.
And you are totally right in what you said about being relaxing safety measures for kind of saving a little the struggles in our Economy.

But, still I think we haven’t been doing well. Because now contagios are rising a lot so it’s normal countries from the North of Europe advice their citizens.
What is due this increase of contagios? We will know with time but it seems the increasing is taking place in the young range age.

Then, here there’s an ancestral problem between Central Government and the Communities and wherever a problem may emerge, the Central Government passes the responsibility to the Communities and the Communities to the Central Government and so on. You know...each country has its idiosyncrasies.
It’s all so boring, obscene and hurting that I decided a long time ago to disconnect from anything that may come from a politician or someone who may have obtain a charge due to political reasons.

It’s said in bad situations the best and the worst of us arises to the surface. Well, I’m still waiting for seeing the best.

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