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Default Oct 08, 2021 at 08:05 AM
  #1
Right up front, this is not about physical abuse. I am not in that kind of danger.

This is an eggshell situation. I'm basically house bound. I don't people well, never did. That combined with a long bout of physical issues sort of developed into some mild agoraphobia. Home was the only place I felt safe and comfortable.

And that was working for me, for the most part. Then my youngest turned 18. Now, I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone here that 18 is hard. And I totally get that she's scared and confused, and that her brain isn't finished cooking yet, so there's going to be some craziness. This isn't my first time at this rodeo.

But, there is this one issue, and I don't want to go into exactly what it is for fear of derailing from my main issue, that is just a really big trigger for me. I'll just say, she's latched onto some internet group think that, as someone with more life experience, I can recognize as potentially dangerous if she goes too far down that rabbit hole. Any time it comes up my anxiety spikes. I can't sleep, my stomach turns, and I can't think about anything else. It takes me days to get back to OK.

That's becoming a very hard way to live. Any time, any moment, the next thing out her mouth could set off an anxiety spike, and it's just always there, no escaping it.

Everything that lives needs a safe place to retreat to, to let down the guard and relax, and right now, I don't have that. I'm living in a constant state of alert.

And yes, we have talked about it, but it's developed into a pattern. I have an episode. She's super, sweet to me until I'm doing better, and as soon as I am, it's safe to start dropping subtle little hints within my earshot again. I don't think she's trying to stir up trouble, or upset me. I think she just thinks that, if she keeps up the mild pressure, that eventually I'll "come around".

Anyway, it happened again yesterday, and I woke up early, feeling like crap. Sometimes you just have to express stuff.
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Default Oct 08, 2021 at 12:19 PM
  #2
I am so sorry you are in that situation. It sounds incredibly stressful and distressing. I wish I knew what to say that would help, but I have never had children and am therefore the last person on earth to offer advice. I hope your daughter grows out of this phase she is going through for her sake and for your sake. I was a wild teenager and put my poor parents through hell. So my heart goes out to you! So sorry I do not know how to be helpful.
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Default Oct 08, 2021 at 04:23 PM
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I am so sorry you are in that situation. It sounds incredibly stressful and distressing. I wish I knew what to say that would help, but I have never had children and am therefore the last person on earth to offer advice. I hope your daughter grows out of this phase she is going through for her sake and for your sake. I was a wild teenager and put my poor parents through hell. So my heart goes out to you! So sorry I do not know how to be helpful.
Just listening is helpful, thank you.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 03:38 AM
  #4
Out the Window,

I'm so sorry you are struggling with the triggers concerning your daughter. I'm homebound, too. I'm not agoraphobic, but I'm not technically socially anxious either. It's something different. I have many different fears.

But besides that, I also worry a lot - for my friends, my family, and my daughter. I didn't raise my daughter, but she's 18 now and in college. I hear from her adoptive mom, and she tells me how she's doing. But still, I worry. I think part of parenthood includes caring deeply, which can feel like worry and panic and anxiety to those of us who have certain mental conditions.

The problem arises when we find the worrying takes over our lives and makes it harder for us to function on a daily basis or even relationally.

In your situation, your daughter is still living with you, so you see things that perhaps many other parents might not see if their kids were out and living elsewhere. The fortunate side to this is that your daughter is open to speaking with you about what she is interested in, as opposed to hiding it. That's one level of relationship that sounds good and much safer than if she were hiding it from you. The other thing is that she still lives with you, so you have a lot of room to communicate with her about your concerns, you care for her, your worries, and your ability to give her tools to make the right decisions as a young adult. Perhaps a family systems therapist might be able to help, if you can afford one. If not, perhaps finding tools to help you set some boundaries while also being open to discussing your daughter's interests. Perhaps have a sit down with her and ask why this group is so important to her. Tell her that you are worried about her safety and why. Tell her that you understand she is trying to get your approval for something that you don't feel you can approve. Tell her how it makes you feel knowing that she's participating in a group that could potentially harm her in some way, or at minimum stunt her growth when there are so many other healthier options out there. Perhaps offer alternative, healthier options to see if she could give those a try. It's like trying to tell a person addicted to, say, sugar to quit altogether. It's not that simple unless there's a replacement of some kind.

Find the "reinforcement" that your daughter receives from that group she's in, and then see if there are healthier reinforcements that can offer her similar (if not better) support, or whatever it is she finds appealing in that group. In the example of sugar addiction, the reinforcement might be getting energy and curbing a sweet tooth at the same time. So a healthy alternative to quit sugar is to find sweet alternatives in moderation, such as fruit, flavored water, and natural sweet sources with fiber (since fiber is a protective factor against obesity and insulin resistance, which are related to glucose and sugar intake). Artificial sugars might not be the best alternative either, but they could be one stepping stone in the right direction, depending on what a physician states. In this case, it's some online social setting that you're concerned about for your daughter.

You have valid reasons to be concerned, and your daughter is at the stage of wanting to explore life, so she has valid reasons for wanting to explore. Perhaps there is a way you can kindly nudge her in the right direction, but still put the responsibility on her by her choosing to do what is right while also keeping the communication open to you.

As far as your triggers, perhaps you can set a boundary to speak with her about those things at certain times of the day, so that way it's not first thing in the morning or late at night before bed. Whatever works best for you to help you not panic as much.

Hope these tips help.
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Default Oct 17, 2021 at 10:53 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by SprinkL3 View Post
Out the Window,

I'm so sorry you are struggling with the triggers concerning your daughter. I'm homebound, too. I'm not agoraphobic, but I'm not technically socially anxious either. It's something different. I have many different fears.

But besides that, I also worry a lot - for my friends, my family, and my daughter. I didn't raise my daughter, but she's 18 now and in college. I hear from her adoptive mom, and she tells me how she's doing. But still, I worry. I think part of parenthood includes caring deeply, which can feel like worry and panic and anxiety to those of us who have certain mental conditions.

The problem arises when we find the worrying takes over our lives and makes it harder for us to function on a daily basis or even relationally.

In your situation, your daughter is still living with you, so you see things that perhaps many other parents might not see if their kids were out and living elsewhere. The fortunate side to this is that your daughter is open to speaking with you about what she is interested in, as opposed to hiding it. That's one level of relationship that sounds good and much safer than if she were hiding it from you. The other thing is that she still lives with you, so you have a lot of room to communicate with her about your concerns, you care for her, your worries, and your ability to give her tools to make the right decisions as a young adult. Perhaps a family systems therapist might be able to help, if you can afford one. If not, perhaps finding tools to help you set some boundaries while also being open to discussing your daughter's interests. Perhaps have a sit down with her and ask why this group is so important to her. Tell her that you are worried about her safety and why. Tell her that you understand she is trying to get your approval for something that you don't feel you can approve. Tell her how it makes you feel knowing that she's participating in a group that could potentially harm her in some way, or at minimum stunt her growth when there are so many other healthier options out there. Perhaps offer alternative, healthier options to see if she could give those a try. It's like trying to tell a person addicted to, say, sugar to quit altogether. It's not that simple unless there's a replacement of some kind.

Find the "reinforcement" that your daughter receives from that group she's in, and then see if there are healthier reinforcements that can offer her similar (if not better) support, or whatever it is she finds appealing in that group. In the example of sugar addiction, the reinforcement might be getting energy and curbing a sweet tooth at the same time. So a healthy alternative to quit sugar is to find sweet alternatives in moderation, such as fruit, flavored water, and natural sweet sources with fiber (since fiber is a protective factor against obesity and insulin resistance, which are related to glucose and sugar intake). Artificial sugars might not be the best alternative either, but they could be one stepping stone in the right direction, depending on what a physician states. In this case, it's some online social setting that you're concerned about for your daughter.

You have valid reasons to be concerned, and your daughter is at the stage of wanting to explore life, so she has valid reasons for wanting to explore. Perhaps there is a way you can kindly nudge her in the right direction, but still put the responsibility on her by her choosing to do what is right while also keeping the communication open to you.

As far as your triggers, perhaps you can set a boundary to speak with her about those things at certain times of the day, so that way it's not first thing in the morning or late at night before bed. Whatever works best for you to help you not panic as much.

Hope these tips help.
Thank you for the detailed response.

I think most of it is coming from coming of age anxiety. You're right that she wants to explore the world as an adult, but she's also scared to death of the concept of being an adult. I don't blame her. I wouldn't want to have turned 18 this year of all years.

W/o going into too many details, I guess the new hip thing the kids are doing is, mental issues have somehow become cool. She has self diagnosed herself with a few things, DID for example and most recently, autism.

It's hard b/c, on the one hand, I can't pretend to go along with it and encourage her to think of her "alters" as actual alternate personalities. That's not going to be helpful. On the other hand, if I just hit her with 20 ccs of reality and tell her she needs to stop playing pretend before she start screwing her head up for real, that definitely won't go well.

Anyway, we did get her an appointment with a local therapist, so that's a win. I just have to hope that it's one of the good ones. I myself have been to a few bad ones and seen how counter productive that can be. I'll also have to walk the tight rope of trying to monitor the situation w/o being invasive of her privacy.

It's going to be tricky b/c I'm not trying to be a helicopter mom that can't let the kid grow up, but, I'm also not going to pay for someone to cement her delusions even more firmly, so I'll have to know some of what's going on. But, she hasn't even had her first appointment yet, so that's a worry for later.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing that would help is a separation from the social media. But, if I try to take the phone, she'll just run right to her dad, who would give it right back, and I'd be the big bad guy with both of them and have accomplished absolutely nothing in the process.

She's just stuck in that place a lot of young people end up in. She wants to be grown up when it comes to authority, but not when it comes to responsibility. End result, sleep all day. Play on the phone all night, and let a bunch of other confused kids convince her of all the reasons she's too screwed in the head to be expected to have to "adult".

Time will take care of some of this. In the mean time, I'm struggling with the resentment that her play pretend issues are setting off my real diagnosed issues. Hopefully, if she has any real issues, the therapy will help identify them and we can go from there.

Wow, that went long. I guess I've been suppressing a lot of troublesome emotions just trying to keep the drama levels down.
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Heart Oct 17, 2021 at 06:19 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by out the window View Post
Thank you for the detailed response.

I think most of it is coming from coming of age anxiety. You're right that she wants to explore the world as an adult, but she's also scared to death of the concept of being an adult. I don't blame her. I wouldn't want to have turned 18 this year of all years.

W/o going into too many details, I guess the new hip thing the kids are doing is, mental issues have somehow become cool. She has self diagnosed herself with a few things, DID for example and most recently, autism.

It's hard b/c, on the one hand, I can't pretend to go along with it and encourage her to think of her "alters" as actual alternate personalities. That's not going to be helpful. On the other hand, if I just hit her with 20 ccs of reality and tell her she needs to stop playing pretend before she start screwing her head up for real, that definitely won't go well.

Anyway, we did get her an appointment with a local therapist, so that's a win. I just have to hope that it's one of the good ones. I myself have been to a few bad ones and seen how counter productive that can be. I'll also have to walk the tight rope of trying to monitor the situation w/o being invasive of her privacy.

It's going to be tricky b/c I'm not trying to be a helicopter mom that can't let the kid grow up, but, I'm also not going to pay for someone to cement her delusions even more firmly, so I'll have to know some of what's going on. But, she hasn't even had her first appointment yet, so that's a worry for later.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing that would help is a separation from the social media. But, if I try to take the phone, she'll just run right to her dad, who would give it right back, and I'd be the big bad guy with both of them and have accomplished absolutely nothing in the process.

She's just stuck in that place a lot of young people end up in. She wants to be grown up when it comes to authority, but not when it comes to responsibility. End result, sleep all day. Play on the phone all night, and let a bunch of other confused kids convince her of all the reasons she's too screwed in the head to be expected to have to "adult".

Time will take care of some of this. In the mean time, I'm struggling with the resentment that her play pretend issues are setting off my real diagnosed issues. Hopefully, if she has any real issues, the therapy will help identify them and we can go from there.

Wow, that went long. I guess I've been suppressing a lot of troublesome emotions just trying to keep the drama levels down.
It sounds like you are struggling with what your daughter has presented to you, and also the common things when a child goes to the other parent (in this case, her dad) when she doesn't like what she's hearing or receiving from the parent (in this case, you).

A family systems therapist might be able to help patch things up between you and your daughter and your family unit. Family relationships are important to maintain, and it sounds like you and your daughter are struggling with the coming-of-age transitions. If she moves out, you might struggle with the empty nest transition as well, and her the scary part of moving out for the first time. All of those transitions are part of that phase of growing from adolescence into young adulthood. It affects everyone in the family. It's not easy.

Kudos to you for finding her an individual psychotherapist to see. It sounds like your daughter has brought up some issues that she needs help with. And it sounds like you are getting her the correct help. Only a mental health professional can diagnose. In psychology courses, they warn people not to diagnose people they know or even themselves, because of the inherent biases involved. Children or teens or even mainstream society do not know that, so people make judgments based on what they think they know of a situation. I might respond here with suggestions, but I'm no expert or professional - just another bio mom in the wind and feeling the effects of many disabilities and traumatic events.

The fact that your daughter is coming to you about what she believes she is struggling with is brave. Even if she were pretending (which there is a chance she might not be pretending, so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that), it's still an area of concern for a mental health professional, and one that only a mental health professional could unpack. Your daughter may be struggling with some things that she hasn't disclosed to you. A seasoned therapist will be able to assess your daughter through the proper questions and sessions needed to make a diagnosis. Sometimes that takes time. Sometimes that takes referrals.

But it sounds like you are distressed from what your daughter told you, and maybe you could benefit from your own private sessions for a while, apart from your daughter. Are you in therapy? If so, what does your therapist say? You don't have to answer me if you're not comfortable, but those are questions you can ask yourself.

Also, what does your husband/daughter's father say (if you're married or in partnership, that is)? Does he agree with you, or does he observe other things? Is he helping with the support both you and your daughter need during these transitions, and is he also struggling in his own way with all of this? These are also questions you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable, but you can ask yourself and ponder what you can do next in terms of communication and processing things for yourself.

These are not easy things to question or consider.

What do you think will help you at this point? You've done what you could to help your daughter by setting a mental health appointment for her, but what do you need right now? Without trying to figure out what your daughter may or may not have, what do you fear about your own relationship with your daughter? What do you feel about your daughter's relationship with her dad? What do you feel about how your daughter's actions or inactions affect you as you all go through these transitions? Can you perhaps discuss your answers to these questions with a therapist for yourself? A good therapist would be able to help you with all of these questions and more.
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Default Oct 18, 2021 at 10:45 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by SprinkL3 View Post
It sounds like you are struggling with what your daughter has presented to you, and also the common things when a child goes to the other parent (in this case, her dad) when she doesn't like what she's hearing or receiving from the parent (in this case, you).

A family systems therapist might be able to help patch things up between you and your daughter and your family unit. Family relationships are important to maintain, and it sounds like you and your daughter are struggling with the coming-of-age transitions. If she moves out, you might struggle with the empty nest transition as well, and her the scary part of moving out for the first time. All of those transitions are part of that phase of growing from adolescence into young adulthood. It affects everyone in the family. It's not easy.

Kudos to you for finding her an individual psychotherapist to see. It sounds like your daughter has brought up some issues that she needs help with. And it sounds like you are getting her the correct help. Only a mental health professional can diagnose. In psychology courses, they warn people not to diagnose people they know or even themselves, because of the inherent biases involved. Children or teens or even mainstream society do not know that, so people make judgments based on what they think they know of a situation. I might respond here with suggestions, but I'm no expert or professional - just another bio mom in the wind and feeling the effects of many disabilities and traumatic events.

The fact that your daughter is coming to you about what she believes she is struggling with is brave. Even if she were pretending (which there is a chance she might not be pretending, so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that), it's still an area of concern for a mental health professional, and one that only a mental health professional could unpack. Your daughter may be struggling with some things that she hasn't disclosed to you. A seasoned therapist will be able to assess your daughter through the proper questions and sessions needed to make a diagnosis. Sometimes that takes time. Sometimes that takes referrals.

But it sounds like you are distressed from what your daughter told you, and maybe you could benefit from your own private sessions for a while, apart from your daughter. Are you in therapy? If so, what does your therapist say? You don't have to answer me if you're not comfortable, but those are questions you can ask yourself.

Also, what does your husband/daughter's father say (if you're married or in partnership, that is)? Does he agree with you, or does he observe other things? Is he helping with the support both you and your daughter need during these transitions, and is he also struggling in his own way with all of this? These are also questions you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable, but you can ask yourself and ponder what you can do next in terms of communication and processing things for yourself.

These are not easy things to question or consider.

What do you think will help you at this point? You've done what you could to help your daughter by setting a mental health appointment for her, but what do you need right now? Without trying to figure out what your daughter may or may not have, what do you fear about your own relationship with your daughter? What do you feel about your daughter's relationship with her dad? What do you feel about how your daughter's actions or inactions affect you as you all go through these transitions? Can you perhaps discuss your answers to these questions with a therapist for yourself? A good therapist would be able to help you with all of these questions and more.
I had actually been considering getting back to therapy myself and had just discovered that the low income clinic I used to go to had not, in fact, closed, as I thought it had. That's why, when it came up with her, I had all the info and was ready to go. Happy accident, that. My entire focus shifted to her. Suddenly it was all about getting HER in to see someone, getting Her OK. Maternal instinct I suppose.

Her dad and I have been married 20 years. It's not a perfect marriage, not a fairy tale, but not a nightmare either. We both have our issues and baggage, but we know by now that the issues are going to come up from time to time, and that's part of the package. It's not like he can just stop being bipolar and I can just stop being clinically depressed. Yes, this makes the relationship "interesting" at times, but we work it out. Not that we haven't had a few close calls.

Unfortunately, his way of dealing with problems is to pretend they don't exist until they can't be ignored anymore and then emote at them. I love the guy, but that's been driving me crazy for 20 years. Yes, I've talked to him about this. We even took her phone away for a few months. When he gave it back, he did it w/o even discussing it with me first. He just felt it was time. Her behavior improved, so he convinced himself that the problem had gone away, and reset to normal. He just doesn't want to deal with anything, and honestly, neither to I, but somebody has to, so I'm kind of all alone in this.

I really don't think she's moving out anytime soon. Honestly, she was elated when she made the phone call for her therapy appointment, so proud that she did an "adult thing". Mind you, this is after the 15 minutes it took her to work up the nerve to make the call, and after I had called the day before and basically set everything in motion, so all she had to do was set a time for the appointment. Yeah, I'm thinking this is not a person anywhere near being able to go out and manage her own life.

I'm actually pretty OK with her moving out. I've down that twice already (different father). The two things I'm concerned about are: failure to launch and we end up with a 30 year old drop out that never grew up, or she rushes out before she's ready and crashes and burns. Leaving home as a stable functional adult that can handle her life is actually the good outcome, so even though I'm sure I would have some mom twinges, I recognize that it would be a good thing.

I feel like the only adult in the house with two children. I'm the only one that recognizes that the real world is a thing and that problems have to be dealt with. But it does me no good to bring it up b/c they are both happier ignoring problems, which makes me the bad guy that just likes stirring up needless drama. And then I end up gaslighting myself, thinking that maybe I am the problem. And how the heck do you answer that question w/o falling into self diagnosis? You can't. Yeah, I definitely need to be talking to a therapist, but all those resources are being put towards her right now. There's only so much we can realistically do, and she is my priority right now. Maybe one we get her settled in, I can consider whether it's doable for me as well. I have told her I would make myself available for joint sessions, which I do think would be beneficial, but I don't want to be perceived as trying to push my way into her therapy.
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Default Oct 18, 2021 at 05:23 PM
  #8
One suggestion, if it's finances you're concerned about with therapy, is to get a family systems therapist who can also do individual counseling. This way, the family systems therapist could help all of you, while also referring your daughter out to a psychiatrist or psychologist for a one-time, in-depth assessment.

But if you want to see your daughter taken care of first, that's a good step, too.

It sounds like you all are struggling with specific limitations. So sorry to hear that. There might be a local or online family support group to help with transitional things, especially when I've heard so many parents worry about their emerging adult children between the ages of 18 and 24. So many parents worry that their children will wind up unsuccessful, or living with their parents in their 30s, or sloppy and irresponsible with roommates, or getting into the wrong crowd and doing deviant things, or crashing and burning - so many worries. I'm sure that the adult children are worried about those things, too.

But I've seen foster children really struggle when they age out of the system, despite their not having much guidance at all in a crowded system with little love and just rules as guides. Some wound up homeless (before there were transition programs), and then they had to rehabilitate from there. But then many wind up finding some direction in community college, the military, certain volunteer programs with live-in arrangements, etc. If they can manage without caring parents, what more opportunities there are for those with one or more caring parents (depending on the type of family unit you have).

And then again, even the most caring parents might have a child who has decided to go in the wrong direction and get in trouble with the law, or with drugs, etc. Sometimes it's not the parents' approaches at all that led to a young adult making the wrong choices; it could be other forms of peer pressure, such as at work or in school or in neighborhoods, etc. It could be a number of things. All you can do is your best, as a parent. And it seems like you and your husband are doing that - your best, given all the struggles all of you seem to be facing - both individually and collectively.

But seeking help for yourself - even if it's not professional help that you pay for - is part of self-care, and will help you to parent. It's a sensitive topic for a lot of people, but if you have a church community, sometimes pastors offer pastoral counselling for families. If you're not into any religion, then you can seek out a local or online family support group to figure out what your options are. You can also seek out care specifically for parents with mental illnesses, which will help you to find support as a parent with a mental illness.

I think your concern for your daughter is a very common concern. I've heard that from my professors when I used to work in a lab; this one professor - very well off, mind you - was also concerned in similar ways as you regarding his teenage daughter (who was approaching her senior year in high school). He echoed a lot of things you stated.

But after a certain age in their teen years, they have to learn to make decisions for themselves and either reap rewards or pay the consequences. If they do something illegal, they pay the consequence. If they do something without thinking properly, they may get injured or worse, and therefore pay the consequences. Parents can teach them, guide them, warn them, but they have to make the choice. If parents are always there to restrict, dictate, and helicopter, then they will never learn to make such choices on their own; they will forever be "infantilized." Conversely, if parents mix and blend infantilization with also giving young children too much responsibilities before they even had a chance to explore childhood, play, and the kind of nurturing without the stress of responsibility (such as being told to babysit their siblings, or to take care of someone's emotional needs when they themselves are barely trying to learn about their own in their preteen years), then they may feel "parentified" before their time. Both infantilization and parentification can cause lasting effects to children's ontological development. It may or may not bring about a mental illness per se, but it can result in resentment, hurt, co-dependency, identity confusion, lack of a sense of self, a false self, etc. There's a balance that needs to be met in every situation.

Youth in foster care often grow up before their time; they've often been adultified, which may be accompanied with or without parentification. Adultification entails growing up before your time. It can be quite adaptive in the sense that some "gifted children" engage in certain structures of learning that is well above their peers' abilities. They are therefore given more responsibilities in learning and executing projects. Still, they deserve playtime. But there's a balance there with that, too. For other children, however, their adultification is more maladaptive. For youth in foster care, they've had to use adult-like skills to self-care, look out for danger, understand the criminal justice system if their parents and/or siblings were arrested and they need to learn the rules of visitation, understand how to work with a GAL in order to deal with family court, criminal court, etc. They've had to deal with a different set of rules, and they've had to learn how to live with "roommates" as strangers before their time - which is not like "boarding school," but rather like an "invisible prison." They can't just freely play like other children, nor can they go out and spend the night at others' houses because they have to follow their foster home's rules. The foster parents may or may not offer love, but they almost always make the children do more house chores than what they'd be accustomed to growing up in a nuclear or otherwise stable family setting.

But then again, even impoverished children, children of single parents, children of a disabled or substance-abusing parent, children with many siblings, and migrant children in the U.S. struggle with forms of adultification, which is often accompanied by parentification. All forms of parentification include adultification, but not all forms of adultification include parentification. Parentification is when there's a role reversal between the child and the parent. The child either takes care of the siblings and becomes a co-parent or pseudo parent when a substance abusing parent is passed out and unable to take care of the kids. Parentification can also include the need for extra responsibilities to pay bills, clean the home, and work part-time to help out impoverished parents or underemployed parents or parents who have sought asylum. Parentification also includes children helping to take care of a physically or mentally disabled parent, sibling, and/or extended family member (such as a grandparent or uncle). When children are compelled to grow up before their time (which is adultification) and then take on responsibilities before their time (which is parentification), their own dreams and goals are discarded or placed on hold, and their schoolwork, school socialization, and neighborhood/community socialization suffers. They only learn to meet the needs of the family without finding out what their own needs are.

What gets very confusing is when parentified children are also infantilized, and when there are disorganized attachment patterns with very little predictability. A substance abusing parent might change rules all the time, and out of the blue be happy one moment but then get angry and punitive in another moment. Such instances of constant unpredictability coupled with any prolonged emotional neglect (withholding warmth and love), emotional abuse (inflicting verbal harm, etc.), physical abuse (pinching, shoving, punching, slapping, kicking, belting), and/or sexual abuse (touch or no touch sexual abuse, verbal sexual harassment, spousification to meet the sexual needs of a parent/incest, penetration or no penetration with any body part or object) can, in fact, lead to complex posttraumatic stress disorder, conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, dissociative identity disorder, dissociative amnesia, dissociative fugue, depersonalization, derealization, and perhaps other sequelae from severe, prolonged, and accumulative childhood trauma related to disorganized attachment. These can all develop into personality disorders in the future, if there is no intervention. And even with intervention, such as that from the foster care system or wraparound services within the child welfare system, the children might have long-term sequalae to deal with.

This is why it's good for not only children to seek counseling when there is one or more filial stressors, but also for the entire family to seek counseling - as individuals and as a unit. Unfortunately, there is still a lack of parity and funding for mental health, so insurance companies are less likely to offer family systems therapies and instead more likely to offer individual treatments with pseudo preventative measures (symptoms after some stressor must occur before the insurance company is willing to pay for treatment and hopefully prevention, if possible).

I am somewhat biased because of my own childhood traumas, so these are my perspectives. Other people might have better perspectives to offer you. I just throw this out here just to offer you a bunch of options when considering what you all might need in terms of seeking help from the community or from professionals.

Hope these tips help.
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Default Oct 19, 2021 at 10:48 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by SprinkL3 View Post
One suggestion, if it's finances you're concerned about with therapy, is to get a family systems therapist who can also do individual counseling. This way, the family systems therapist could help all of you, while also referring your daughter out to a psychiatrist or psychologist for a one-time, in-depth assessment.

But if you want to see your daughter taken care of first, that's a good step, too.

It sounds like you all are struggling with specific limitations. So sorry to hear that. There might be a local or online family support group to help with transitional things, especially when I've heard so many parents worry about their emerging adult children between the ages of 18 and 24. So many parents worry that their children will wind up unsuccessful, or living with their parents in their 30s, or sloppy and irresponsible with roommates, or getting into the wrong crowd and doing deviant things, or crashing and burning - so many worries. I'm sure that the adult children are worried about those things, too.

But I've seen foster children really struggle when they age out of the system, despite their not having much guidance at all in a crowded system with little love and just rules as guides. Some wound up homeless (before there were transition programs), and then they had to rehabilitate from there. But then many wind up finding some direction in community college, the military, certain volunteer programs with live-in arrangements, etc. If they can manage without caring parents, what more opportunities there are for those with one or more caring parents (depending on the type of family unit you have).

And then again, even the most caring parents might have a child who has decided to go in the wrong direction and get in trouble with the law, or with drugs, etc. Sometimes it's not the parents' approaches at all that led to a young adult making the wrong choices; it could be other forms of peer pressure, such as at work or in school or in neighborhoods, etc. It could be a number of things. All you can do is your best, as a parent. And it seems like you and your husband are doing that - your best, given all the struggles all of you seem to be facing - both individually and collectively.

But seeking help for yourself - even if it's not professional help that you pay for - is part of self-care, and will help you to parent. It's a sensitive topic for a lot of people, but if you have a church community, sometimes pastors offer pastoral counselling for families. If you're not into any religion, then you can seek out a local or online family support group to figure out what your options are. You can also seek out care specifically for parents with mental illnesses, which will help you to find support as a parent with a mental illness.

I think your concern for your daughter is a very common concern. I've heard that from my professors when I used to work in a lab; this one professor - very well off, mind you - was also concerned in similar ways as you regarding his teenage daughter (who was approaching her senior year in high school). He echoed a lot of things you stated.

But after a certain age in their teen years, they have to learn to make decisions for themselves and either reap rewards or pay the consequences. If they do something illegal, they pay the consequence. If they do something without thinking properly, they may get injured or worse, and therefore pay the consequences. Parents can teach them, guide them, warn them, but they have to make the choice. If parents are always there to restrict, dictate, and helicopter, then they will never learn to make such choices on their own; they will forever be "infantilized." Conversely, if parents mix and blend infantilization with also giving young children too much responsibilities before they even had a chance to explore childhood, play, and the kind of nurturing without the stress of responsibility (such as being told to babysit their siblings, or to take care of someone's emotional needs when they themselves are barely trying to learn about their own in their preteen years), then they may feel "parentified" before their time. Both infantilization and parentification can cause lasting effects to children's ontological development. It may or may not bring about a mental illness per se, but it can result in resentment, hurt, co-dependency, identity confusion, lack of a sense of self, a false self, etc. There's a balance that needs to be met in every situation.

Youth in foster care often grow up before their time; they've often been adultified, which may be accompanied with or without parentification. Adultification entails growing up before your time. It can be quite adaptive in the sense that some "gifted children" engage in certain structures of learning that is well above their peers' abilities. They are therefore given more responsibilities in learning and executing projects. Still, they deserve playtime. But there's a balance there with that, too. For other children, however, their adultification is more maladaptive. For youth in foster care, they've had to use adult-like skills to self-care, look out for danger, understand the criminal justice system if their parents and/or siblings were arrested and they need to learn the rules of visitation, understand how to work with a GAL in order to deal with family court, criminal court, etc. They've had to deal with a different set of rules, and they've had to learn how to live with "roommates" as strangers before their time - which is not like "boarding school," but rather like an "invisible prison." They can't just freely play like other children, nor can they go out and spend the night at others' houses because they have to follow their foster home's rules. The foster parents may or may not offer love, but they almost always make the children do more house chores than what they'd be accustomed to growing up in a nuclear or otherwise stable family setting.

But then again, even impoverished children, children of single parents, children of a disabled or substance-abusing parent, children with many siblings, and migrant children in the U.S. struggle with forms of adultification, which is often accompanied by parentification. All forms of parentification include adultification, but not all forms of adultification include parentification. Parentification is when there's a role reversal between the child and the parent. The child either takes care of the siblings and becomes a co-parent or pseudo parent when a substance abusing parent is passed out and unable to take care of the kids. Parentification can also include the need for extra responsibilities to pay bills, clean the home, and work part-time to help out impoverished parents or underemployed parents or parents who have sought asylum. Parentification also includes children helping to take care of a physically or mentally disabled parent, sibling, and/or extended family member (such as a grandparent or uncle). When children are compelled to grow up before their time (which is adultification) and then take on responsibilities before their time (which is parentification), their own dreams and goals are discarded or placed on hold, and their schoolwork, school socialization, and neighborhood/community socialization suffers. They only learn to meet the needs of the family without finding out what their own needs are.

What gets very confusing is when parentified children are also infantilized, and when there are disorganized attachment patterns with very little predictability. A substance abusing parent might change rules all the time, and out of the blue be happy one moment but then get angry and punitive in another moment. Such instances of constant unpredictability coupled with any prolonged emotional neglect (withholding warmth and love), emotional abuse (inflicting verbal harm, etc.), physical abuse (pinching, shoving, punching, slapping, kicking, belting), and/or sexual abuse (touch or no touch sexual abuse, verbal sexual harassment, spousification to meet the sexual needs of a parent/incest, penetration or no penetration with any body part or object) can, in fact, lead to complex posttraumatic stress disorder, conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, dissociative identity disorder, dissociative amnesia, dissociative fugue, depersonalization, derealization, and perhaps other sequelae from severe, prolonged, and accumulative childhood trauma related to disorganized attachment. These can all develop into personality disorders in the future, if there is no intervention. And even with intervention, such as that from the foster care system or wraparound services within the child welfare system, the children might have long-term sequalae to deal with.

This is why it's good for not only children to seek counseling when there is one or more filial stressors, but also for the entire family to seek counseling - as individuals and as a unit. Unfortunately, there is still a lack of parity and funding for mental health, so insurance companies are less likely to offer family systems therapies and instead more likely to offer individual treatments with pseudo preventative measures (symptoms after some stressor must occur before the insurance company is willing to pay for treatment and hopefully prevention, if possible).

I am somewhat biased because of my own childhood traumas, so these are my perspectives. Other people might have better perspectives to offer you. I just throw this out here just to offer you a bunch of options when considering what you all might need in terms of seeking help from the community or from professionals.

Hope these tips help.
Yeah, I'm a little spooked b/c I've seen how badly things can go with my oldest. I don't know what went wrong with that girl, but I strongly suspect she's got some Cluster B stuff going on. Always has to be the center of attention and seems completely unable to consider consequences. I had to give up on her a long time ago.

That's hard. It's one thing to know that a person is toxic and you have to get them out of your life. When that person is your child, all your instinct, and the whole world is telling you, you never give up, you never let go. Motherhood is sacred. It still hurts, honestly.

So yeah, I'm scared of history repeating itself. Then the self doubt starts and I'm on that teeter totter between, "Am I making a big thing out of a small thing b/c I'm spooked?" and, "Am I ignoring a real problem and just refusing to see it b/c I'm scared?"

Anyway, hopefully once she actually starts therapy that will be helpful. I'll have to wait and see. It will all come down to whether the therapist is competent and my daughter is responsive. Then maybe I can get some input into the proper way to handle all this myself.

I just don't seem to have a right answer right now. Like, she has spoken to me about false memories, things that I know for a fact never happened. When I've pointed this out, she just takes my word for it, no argument. That seems really weird to me. It seems like, if she really did believe it, she'd fight me, try to convince me that I'm the one remembering wrong, but she doesn't.

So I have to ask myself, is she just claiming to remember these things b/c that's what "nuerodivergents" do and then backing off when I don't fall for it. Or is her memory really a little messed up, but she trusts me enough to believe me. That is two wildly different responses I should have depending on which it is, and I just don't know, so it feels unsafe even being around her for fear of doing or saying the wrong thing that's only going to make things worse.

Hence, we've come full circle to the start of the thread. I'm trapped in this situation. I never leave the house between health issues and other factors. She hardly ever leaves the house anymore. We're just in here alone together, day after day, and I have no way to get a break from it. Sure, I could gear up to being able to go out, but then I'm just someplace else, I don't want to be, obsessing about how much I want to be home, where I'm not freaking out. Not helpful.
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Default Oct 19, 2021 at 02:46 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by SprinkL3 View Post
It sounds like you're struggling with both your daughter and with pandemic fatigue as well as pandemic stress. You being home all the time is stressful, but going outside when all you do is thinking about coming home is also stressful. I'm struggling with pandemic fatigue and pandemic stress, too. That's tough, and there's no real evidence-based treatment for that at the present time. The best we can do is guess what works best for us. Perhaps going outside for 5 minutes is better than trying for an entire hour or day. Perhaps going outside for 5 minutes just for a walk around the block might be the safest and less stressful thing to do just to get out. You can always increase that time or the activities and distance later on, but it might be a small step in the right direction.

Regarding false memories, there's many different thoughts about that. But again, you're trying to diagnose your daughter, instead of allowing the therapists to do that. And to find a competent therapist is challenging if the parent is involved in assessing the therapist without the daughter's input. That's why family systems might be best if the parent wants to get involved in the competency of the therapist, as opposed to allowing your daughter to make the distinction as to whether the therapist is working for her. Even if the therapist is competent for your standards, the therapist might not be a right fit for your daughter for the purposes of individual therapy. And the therapist might try to keep some things confidential from you, since your daughter is an adult or is in individual and confidential therapy.

This is why it sounds like you're struggling with the possibility that your daughter might have false memories or might actually have real memories that you can't accept. It can be either/or. Again, it takes a proper diagnosis to tell the difference between DID/PTSD/CPTSD and factitious disorders, or even a combination of both, if such were to exist. I've read up on Loftus and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, but I've also read up on DID, CPTSD, PTSD, Dr. Spiegel (I actually met him at Stanford), etc. Dr. Spiegel asserts that there are many holes in Loftus' research. Dr. Loftus asserts that false memories are more common than DID. Dr. Spiegel is a mental health specialist. Dr. Loftus, on the other hand, was first a lawyer before she turned psychologist for the promotion of parental rights. But therapy is not a courtroom, and people don't need to prove their symptoms, prove their memories to be true, or prove their diagnoses. They present as they are, regardless if they are being assessed by a therapist or forensic specialist. Your daughter will probably get varied opinions from varied mental health specialists with varied backgrounds. Its par for the course in psychology.

But if your daughter is not disabled, is no longer your dependent, is an adult 18 years of age or greater (at least in the U.S.), then your daughter has a right to her feelings, her claims (whether real or imagined), her need for help, her wishes against medical advice, her autonomy, her choices in life, her body, her form of psychotherapy, her relationships, her choices in associations, her behaviors, her style of dress, her career choices, her confidentiality in any medical or mental health treatment, etc. It's something that is a right that shouldn't be infantilized by anyone - not a significant other, not a controlling boyfriend, and not a parent of an adult child. That's the hard truth that many parents face when their children become teens let alone adults, regardless if they are ready or not. The difference is if the adult children are disabled and incapable of making their own decisions. But then again, there's the Britney Spears debates going on these days, too. LOL. But Britney Spears could be one fine example of how her life has been controlled and infantilized, despite her having a condition that millions of Americans have, but are able to manage on their own or with some trusted help from non-controlling others. Still, it must have taken a toll on all of Britney's loved ones, and so her dad should find help to deal with his losses and other stressors.

In a similar vein, if your daughter has a mental health issue, and if your daughter claims she is experiencing symptoms, memories, etc., then your daughter has a right to seek care. If you wish to provide it with the caveat of her treatment being under your wishes and not her own, then perhaps you shouldn't be the one funding her treatment. Perhaps she needs to have more freedom to make her own choices and to seek care without strings attached. Honestly, no one can really heal fully when they feel their confidentiality is in question, and when they feel they are being ganged up on by a paying source and a biased mental health professional. That would be against some ethical codes anyway, but maybe not all, depending on how certain institutions operate.

I'd use caution before assuming your daughter has a diagnosis, especially since even a mental health professional parent cannot ethically diagnose their own child - let alone a parent with no license to diagnose. Also, I'd use caution in assuming that your daughter has false memories, especially when many childhood traumas are more often true than false, according to research and studies debunking some false memory studies, and especially when parental rights negate the true need for children's rights when children have been infantilized, parentified, adultified, emotionally neglected, emotionally abused (e.g., gaslit), disbelieved, etc. So many people here have PTSD because their parents negated to believe them when they said they were abused by a parent's paramour, a parent's friend, or even a parent. So many parents want to deny their own culpability in child maltreatment, which is why there's always an opposing (biased) party like the Loftus crowd. But unsubstantiated victimization doesn't mean that it doesn't exist; it just means that it wasn't proven in a court of law. Memories aren't always false just because someone can't prove them, or just because a child "wants attention"; children and humans need attention - but the right kind. The kind of attention we all seek is a loving, comforting one. And when children are encouraged (not forced, not coerced, and not culture-induced) to voice what is going on, that's not false at all; that's bravery.

Your daughter sounds like she's asking for your trust. Your daughter is asking you for help, and she's trusting you to find her help and to believe her. Your disbelief in her either needs to be directly stated to her, so that she knows where you're coming from, or it needs to be reassessed on your part to see if what she might be saying is, in fact, true, and whether you can offer parental support on top of comfort, etc.

It sounds like you have a safe place, but your daughter doesn't.
She's not talking about trauma. These are memories of events that I know did not occur. Just simple events like, for example, a phone call from the school that I know I never got. Believe me, I would have remembered the subject matter, and she set it in a time that I didn't even have a phone to call. I never much saw the need for one considering my circumstances, and only got one just over a year ago.

It is impossible that this happened, yet she claims to have a vivid memory of it.

I'm not trying to diagnose her. I'm just trying to do what's right for her, but I can't know what that is w/o knowing the truth of what's going on with her. That's why it's uncomfortable to be around her right now. I don't want to do or say anything that's going to be harmful to her, but I have know way of knowing what that might be, so everything's always got this underlying tension.
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Default Oct 23, 2021 at 03:34 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by out the window View Post
She's not talking about trauma. These are memories of events that I know did not occur. Just simple events like, for example, a phone call from the school that I know I never got. Believe me, I would have remembered the subject matter, and she set it in a time that I didn't even have a phone to call. I never much saw the need for one considering my circumstances, and only got one just over a year ago.

It is impossible that this happened, yet she claims to have a vivid memory of it.

I'm not trying to diagnose her. I'm just trying to do what's right for her, but I can't know what that is w/o knowing the truth of what's going on with her. That's why it's uncomfortable to be around her right now. I don't want to do or say anything that's going to be harmful to her, but I have know way of knowing what that might be, so everything's always got this underlying tension.
Perhaps you can state a boundary with your daughter so that you can both feel safe. Perhaps leave non-emergency discussions for a specific day out of the week. That way, you know when that's coming. I think there were some tips for families on lockdown earlier in the pandemic, and the need for some alone time when you're constantly around family. If you do a google search, you might find that info somewhere - or perhaps something that can help you lay down some safety rules/boundaries for yourself.

Perhaps your daughter or the school believes they are correct, but maybe the school mentioned something to your daughter, which was incorrect. If it's stuff like that, those common mishaps can be resolved easily by communicating with the school. If it's something else, where your or your daughter's reputation is on the line, then that's another issue altogether. It's hard to know what you mean by not feeling safe. It sounds like your daughter is struggling with some things and not feeling safe, and perhaps you are picking up on not feeling safe from that, too. That's another possibility. It's unclear what you mean, but hopefully you can find the help you - yourself - need to cope with this. Meanwhile, I hope your daughter does well in therapy for herself, too.

Hang in there and keep trying. Find a good support system to help you locally, too. That might make a huge difference in your safety.
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