AvPD Recent Diagnosis

I see there’s not a lot of traffic in this forum, which is a shame seeing as how I have just been dxed as having AvPD and was looking for a place to belong

Thought I’d start a thread anyway though, wondering who else on here has a dx of AvPD or think they fit the criteria, and how they deal with it.

I seem to be a tad different in that behaviourally I’m fine socially, I can go to parties go to the pub go shopping generally mix with people and do it without too much angst, can talk to people easily and maintain connections (to a degree) relatively painlessly. I no longer work (retired) but when I did it wasn’t that excruciating either.

My problem is that the terror of what people think of me, the way they judge and silently criticize and reject and abandon, lives inside my head, in open awareness. I seem to not fear so much what people ACTUALLY think of me as what I just ‘know’ inside my head they think of me – my thinking tips over into paranoia regularly

I live in permanent fear of all the judgements and criticisms and rejections by others that my own perceptions keep throwing up all the time, even when I’m alone and there’s no-one around to do the judging. Like I’ve got a permanent judge inside my head monitoring every thought and feeling and perception, action and word, and I feel like I’m being watched, scrutinized, seen by the whole world. To the point where sometimes it's less stressful and safer to be with people than not.

There’s nowhere safe inside my own head to hide from those all seeing eyes

So ok I seem to have this to a paranoid degree, but I can see quite clearly that it stems from a real fear of what people actually would/might think of me (all negative of course!) and that puts me in the AvPD category.

I suspect that a lot of people with AvPD or social anxiety, can overcome some of their fears and bad feelings by getting out there and mixing and being able to see that other people aren’t really thinking the negative thoughts we fear they are. Trouble for me is that that doesn’t change anything. I do all that, I do mix, I do socialize, I do have contact with people, and it changes nothing. I still live in permanent fear and have an overriding drive to withdraw all the time (which I ignore and work against.) But it’s hard work being amongst people all the same. Countered by an awful need TO be amongst people

The whole idea of ‘challenging’ fears by testing reality just doesn’t work for me – because I still come away from interactions with people convinced that I have shown myself up for the bad wrong unacceptable unlikeable unwantable person I really am and nothing anyone can say (if they bother to say anything at all that is) can undo that negative emotional conviction.

Hm this is getting rather long, sorry for the ramble. I just wanted to sort of introduce myself here and hope that others in the same boat, or anyone who gets this experience, will feel moved to post as well.

Torn

p.s. might start a ‘check in’ type thread here too, what do people think of that?

Hm ok maybe 2 days isn’t that long in the grand scheme of things, but being paranoid as well as AvPD the glaring blankness of this unreplied to thread is rather freaking me out

(Apart from the hugs from Retro Chic – thank you . Ohhhh and the thanks from Quizzicle, thank you too .)

Perhaps no-one can relate after all, I never do seem to fit in any category neatly. Neither properly PPD and only marginally BPD and though definitely AvPD, behaviourally I don’t really fit either.

Well what the hell seeing as how this is a barely frequented forum I’ll just keep talking to myself .

Have been off my trolley for forty years and never had an official dx until the last month. I never could find myself in any of the descriptions and AvPD is the very last thing I would have thought applied to me. Now that I am seeing a clinical psychologist who actually takes me seriously, I can see how AvPD really does fit – at least in terms of motives feelings and thoughts. Not so much in behaviour though.

Mind you this P tells me I have strong borderline traits too, and I’m not sure about that one at all.

Pdoc tells me I’m paranoid personality disorder, which I could have told him that, except that I’ve lived with it for so long I now recognize when I’m being truly paranoid so I don’t really fit that category properly.

For some reason the categories don’t allow for self awareness, once you KNOW what’s going on inside your own head, suddenly you don’t fit the dx anymore. And don’t get taken seriously and don’t get help… you’ve got to be swinging from the chandeliers to get help. If you just go in and ask for it, somehow that makes them think you’re not really ill or in need of help. Catch 22…

Ah well that’s my ramble for the day. Anyone else feel like chipping in and talking about themselves, feel free to do so

Torn

Hi Torn Mind,
I'm glad you found a psychologist who will listen to you. I'm sorry I have not responded sooner to your posts. Often I type replies to posts, but don't send them at the risk of sounding stupid.

I really can relate to the feelings of paranoia - it's a constant struggle for me. I work in an office and have a fairly high level of responsibility where I work - People will come to me for answers and I always feel like crying - I do not feel capable or competent.

I've been working with a psychologist for 4 years now, and to be honest I can't see myself ever getting "better".

I will try to post more later. Need to work now.

Take care.

Hello Two sons, I've just logged in and seen your post, I'm about to head off to bed so will be back tomorrow to reply properly. Just wanted to thank you for replying and to say well done you for being brave enough to write, much appreciated

Torn

Hello! Yes, I think low traffic forums maintain themselves--why check if there is little discussion? I'll try to contribute to the check-in. Might take some perseverance. I get scared of posting sometimes and avoid, avoid. Sorry you didn't get responses right away. I, too, tend to fill in silences with paranoia.

I wonder if you'd be able to challenge fears better in a group setting? That's a common treatment for social phobia. You get to hear judgments from others so your guessing-predicting-paranoid mechanism is taken out of the equation.

I think you can be paranoid and know it. The bipolar forum has posts from people who realize they are having mild psychotic episodes all the time. It's like part of your brain knows the thoughts aren't real...but not your whole brain.

I don't have a dx at all. I have been to T's who "do therapy not diagnosis," but then they casually mention that I have all of the DSM characteristics for AvPD (and other issues). I pick it up because I've read a ton trying to figure things out without talking to anyone (of course!).

When I work hard to challenge beliefs and be social, I can function better. However, I still assume that danger is around the corner. Anytime I stop being vigilant I start withdrawing. Anytime someone whispers I'm sure it's about me. I'm always ashamed of my behavior and watching for rejection. Praise and kindness are worse--I feel ashamed and terrified of being uncovered as a terrible gross person inside. My life is so painful.

I made it through grad school, but have done nothing since taking my licensing exam and moving four months ago. I am trapped in the house often because I am afraid of what neighbors will think. For the last 3 years, I have started daydreaming so much that I can barely function. It is the fastest way to make the fear and shame stop. It is the only thing I like to do now.

So that's where I am. Working every day to try to get back functioning so I can work. Terrified of job interviews--talk about judgment!

Glad you are posting and updating. Hard to confront your issues when your disorder is an inability to confront your issues...

Thanks so much again Two Sons, and Orange Moira for replying. I'm sorry it's taken me ages to get back here, it's not avoidance this time it's just the fact that for some reason I got incredibly busy these last couple of days - had a T session which exhausted me and a Pdoc appointment that cut my day into pieces and then a full day's Christmas shopping - so finally I make it back here when I meant to reply much earlier.

((((( Two Sons ))))) I'm so sorry you're experiencing such difficulties at work - it must be hell to have a position of responsibility like that when all you want to do is run away and hide. Does it get any easier, or do you struggle with it all the time?

So you're been seeing a P for four years, that's a long time. Interesting that you don't feel you will ever get better (at the moment I have to say that's exactly how I feel, pretty hopeless right now .) Do you trust your P? Does s/he understand how you feel generally? I ask what might sound like silly questions but I've had Ts before who really had no idea about what was going on in my head, despite my being really careful to explain it all to them as clearly as I could, and so they never really helped, I just ended up talking round and round in circles and feeling worse and worse. I hope your P isn't like that and does have a good grasp of your issues.

I hope you do come back and post some more, I'd be interested to hear your story . Thanks for replying

Torn

((((( Orange Moira ))))) thank you too for replying.

I think your idea of working in a group setting is right on. One reason why I like forums such as PC, because you're not operating in a vacuum then but dealing with real live people, only much safer than in real world. Funnily enough I saw Pdoc the other day (he's dxed me with paranoid personality disorder, which he confirmed in this recent meeting) and HE said that people with ppd should avoid groups - I tried to point out to him that that might hold for truly paranoid people who don't know they're paranoid but that in fact its what I really want, to be able to mix with people, especially when there is a legitimate reason for my being 'allowed' to be there... He gave me details of a self improvement course happening in the new year which is not group therapy as such but is mixing with other people in a controlled environment. That will be interesting, I do want to go but am really anxious, it's one thing being in a group with other people who are also 'ill', it's quite another when you're in a group of 'normal' people and have to pretend to be normal and ok like them...

Ack I really am rambling a lot at the moment, I'll try and be more concise.

Thank you for this, it does help me .

Snap! I think I know more than your average T these days, the amount of reading I've done.

I do find it frustrating when you get that attitude from Ts that they 'do therapy not diagnosis'. I can understand that Ts would rather relate to the person not a diagnosis, but sometimes it is important to know what one is dealing with. I feel a whole lot better in many ways having specific and fixed labels to apply to what's wrong with me, it's a validation of the fact that I KNOW there's something wrong but, as you might have found with all the reading you do, it could be any one of an endless combination of often conflicting and opposing things that is impossible for a person, subjectively, to work out for themselves.

If you think it AvPD fits how you are, do you find it useful? Are you able to use the dx to come up with ways of understanding and potentially changing negative things you want to change?

Sounds like you have a certain level of potential paranoia operating too? It's so frightening being like this - being afraid of other people and their judgements and potential criticisms - and equally not knowing for sure, it's the uncertainty of it all that's so debilitating and exhausting.

Gosh you are writing so many things that I could have written about myself. I too have that awful terror that if I take in kindness and praise people will 'know' all this bad stuff about me, I'll be exposed and seen as shameful and bad and that's when I get the most paranoid, I can experience praise and admiration and kindness as a trick to make me expose my bad self... it sounds like you have the same sort of set up, and yeah that is painful. I'm sorry you too have such a painful life .

As for daydreaming, I've read in the descriptions of AvPD that living a fantasy life is one of our things. I know I used to live entirely in a fantasy in my head when I was younger, but in recent years I've lost the ability to fantasize or daydream (too much cold hard reality slapping me in the face) so I just wanted to say, don't knock it, if it helps you cope and stops the garbage feelings, then use it as much as you need to. In the end you will choose if and when to step out of a daydream into reality, and that retains for you the choice to step right back if you need to. Having it stripped away removes all choice and you're left with no safe place to hide and self soothe .

Oh again I've really gone on, sorry!

Thanks again for replying, hope you're doing ok today

Torn

Hi Torn and OrangeMoira,
About group therapy......a couple of years ago, I was in an Intensive Outpatient Program where there was group therapy for about 3 hours each day (at that point I was in treatment for Chronic Depression and Major Depression with Psychotic Features and had never heard of Avoidant Personality Disorder). It literally took me 3 months to get somewhat comfortable in a group setting and then when I was just starting to get somewhat used to it, the insurance ended it. That created another adjustment for me (back to once a week tdoc sessions).

I have a really good tdoc (clinical psychologist) that I see every Friday at 8 a.m. Having this consistency is very important to me.

I do not like the term "fantasizing", but tdoc tells me that I do this. My fantasizing is about suicide - always a plan in place.

Hey Torn,
I'm undiagnosed, myself. But I fit AvPD almost completely. I relate to a lot of what you said. It's a struggle for me to keep in contact with everyone..even though I really want to. I go to send a text to a friend asking if they would want to hang out..then I realize they probably wouldn't want to, so I don't send it. Whenever I do get out and hang with a friend, I enjoy it. But if it involves a group (sometimes even more than one person) I'm cool with everyone and talking for the first 10 minutes or so..but I tend to "shut down" after that. I constantly analyze everyone around, wondering what they are thinking of me. If I do talk after that happens..I tend to mumble. Mostly due to the fact that I hate being the center of attention. After I get home, I zone out thinking about all of the things they could have been thinking of me..what I could have done/said different to make myself 'fit in'. It's painful to be social, it's painful to withdraw from everyone. I'm 20, and I feel that my life is already over. I'm being set up with a T in a couple of weeks..this will be my first time seeing one. I don't know what to expect, or if I will be able to stick with it. Sorry for posting..

Hope everything is going well,
Chris.

Hey there Two Sons, thanks for updating .

The group therapy sounded potentially really good and typically, finished before you could get much out of it (that's the trouble with time limited stuff, by the time you get comfortable with it, it's over!) I think group therapy is probably a really good thing for AvPD'ers, at least I'd like to do it, because then you've got the chance to mingle with and meet other people but with 'permission' to be there, if you get what I mean.

Hey fantasizing is no bad thing if it helps you cope, and having a sui plan in place also has its advantages in that if you can think about it and plan for it, chances are you're less likely to actually act on it. Bit like a safety valve? But it's really sad that you have to have a plan in the first place .

Do you think that you've improved or feel better over the time you've been seeing your Tdoc?

Hope you're hanging in there, keep posting if it helps .

Torn

Hello Call Me Chris, can I call you Chris (Lol I bet you get fed up with that comment all the time!)

Thanks for posting .

Wow you actually are able to enjoy being with people, even if not all the time. I envy you. I get how one to one can be a lot easier than with a group but I find that even harder. At least with a group you've got other people doing a lot of the talking and so it's less stressful for me to sit back and just listen.

Sounds like you go through a lot of the semi-paranoid thinking that I do in your description of 'after the event'. Wondering what they thought of you and how they saw you - it's SO hard to get off that treadmill, because you can't prove it one way or the other and once the fear in your head throws up those thoughts and images you're stuck with them That's how it works for me, no matter how much I tell myself that it's 'just' me fearing and anticipating all this negative stuff, it doesn't make it go away.

Hey that's good news isn't it that you'll be seeing a T? Sounds like you're a bit dubious about it though? I hope you do go just to see what the T is like.

Oh and please don't be sorry for posting, I appreciate it .

Torn

Torn, I wonder why your Pdoc would not suggest working with groups in therapy? It seems like practicing with the safety net of a moderator would be helpful. Maybe he thought it would be too triggering. Hope the self improvement course goes well if you try it. I tend to manage those things by wearing a fake personality. Just another way to subtly avoid by not putting myself out there. I can manage small talk, but not medium talk (if you know what I mean). If you are able to fully participate, I think it could be very helpful to see that you can interact with the "normal" folks.

I will think a bit about your comment that sometimes you "experience praise and admiration and kindness as a trick" to make you expose yourself. I have exactly those feelings at times; I think that stems from childhood bullying. I also have some strong paranoid traits, mostly related to other people talking or laughing. I get absolutely certain that other people are talking about me and don't like me--to the point where I am ready to never speak to them again over it. Usually, of course, people are not discussing me! Yes, it does wear me out. Recently I have had insomnia because I'm sure that the noisy night owl neighbors beneath me are discussing me, and I am compelled to listen for references to me (that never happen). Ugh. I know the facts aren't real, but the feelings are.

I think personality disorder diagnoses are helpful because they describe a pattern of symptoms that often occur together. It has been helpful to me to look into them because I've gained insight into how some of my weird behaviors may be related.

I read about AvPD fantasizing in the Millon book, and he says that eventually it will be unsatisfying and the person gets worse or better. I've had that experience in the past; as a young person when I got too busy, and as an older person who found no more enjoyment from it. But right now it feels like an addiction. I'm fighting an active drive toward daydreaming as a pleasurable activity on top of fighting my avoidance of activities that would make me feel exposed or trigger my feelings of inadequacy. Very tough. If I could use it as a reward or just an escape during my worst moments, it could be helpful.

Two sons, I had a T who told me I was "fantasizing" when I was expressing a wish that things could be different. It really irritated me, too! I think there may be a clinical definition of fantasy that is different than I understand it. Glad you have a tdoc you like.

Chris, at 20 years old your life is definitely not over! In fact, around your age, lots of people have the same issues to some degree. If yours are getting the best of you, confronting them is the best thing you can do for yourself. If you work on it, you can get better over time and your life will be more full and happy. I hope you like your T and work well with him/her. If you haven't checked out the psychotherapy part of the forum, it is really supportive of people going through therapy. Posting there might keep you from talking yourself out of continuing. I'm so glad you are posting here! It helps to hear from other people who are fighting through this.

Hello again Moira, glad you made it back here .

Ah, don't you find though that the trouble with fantasy/daydreaming is that you can't do it to order? I found I could only really indulge when it occurred in a sort of background way without my being consciously aware that that's what I was doing. Once I realized just how much of my life I spent in fantasy land suddenly I wasn't able to do it anymore . I've now completely lost the ability to even daydream and it's really no fun having my face rubbed in reality to this extent. My substitute now is distracting (books, tv, the internet...) but that's not nearly as effective or comforting.

Yeah your T's comment about a wish for things to be different as being fantasizing sounded more like a criticism or a judgement and didn't strike me as helpful at all .

I can relate to being able to make the small talk and actually I can sometimes manage medium talk too, only with people I know really well though (not many in other words ). It's the serious stuff I have major problems with, definitely in face to face. (It's not so difficult on the internet which is why I love PC but even that took me a couple of years to get the hang of being able to be more open and the paranoia and fear still affect me.) I look on forum interactions as a microcosm of the the real world and therefore a great 'practice' for reality.

From what I gather of the descriptions of AvPD, it's not that far removed from paranoia. And I suspect a lot of Avoidants probably drop into a more paranoid state than the descriptions acknowledge. I certainly do, in the sense that it's not out and out paranoia and so very difficult to disprove or rationalize away effectively. Fear creates something to be afraid of! How can you disprove fear when it speaks so seductively and insistently of threats to be defended against?

Exactly!

You know I'm not really sure why the Pdoc discounted my doing group therapy, he just said it was more or less contraindicated for paranoid personality disorder (that's his dx for me, my P assessed me with AvPD - both of which fit me very well). The trouble is I think he was operating from his status quo which is that PPD people aren't normally aware THAT they are paranoid and so being in a group situation apparently not only exacerbates their paranoia but can be lethal to the rest of the group too (I'm guessing.) This is always my problem with a dx - once you're aware of your issues and dysfunctional ways of thinking and beliefs, you no longer really fit the dx and so the treatments aren't always appropriate... but that for another thread maybe...

Moira did you think anymore about how praise and kindness can be a sort or trick? It's a very paranoid response on my part and I know exactly where it came from and why but it may not be how other people experience it. I just wondered if you had any further ideas about why praise and kindness would make you feel ashamed. Of course there is no need for you to reply to that (or anything else here for that matter) unless you're absolutely comfortable doing so .

Thanks again for replying.

Torn

Hey Torn,

Yes, you can. Lol. It doesn't annoy me at all.

I don't know why I said that I enjoy it. I really don't. I feel like people are treating me like a child whenever they try to get me to talk. Mostly because of the topics they choose..games. When a friend asks me to hang out..it usually involves playing xbox. It's cool and all..but I feel like I'm the last option for everyone.

It's whatever. I've been working on keeping everything to myself. Going good so far.

I agree with that.. From my experience, it's not a good idea to ask them about it to confirm/deny the thoughts. It didn't make the situation better at all. Turned the thoughts into, "Now they are lying to me. They wouldn't tell me if they did."

My appointment is in 4 days.. I'll try to ask her about the T. I'm nervous as hell though.

Thank you. And I'm more than happy to post..just have trouble with wording everything. :P


Hey Moira,

Thanks. I know it's not over, kind of feels like it though. Any advice on confronting problems if I'm not sure what they are? I'm not sure what to say to the T, if I do see them.. I'm bad with saying things the contradict something I will say later on. Like "I enjoy hanging out with friends" then later down the road.. "I don't enjoy socializing, I feel like an outcast aslkjdgaija"

I will try posting there when I set up my first appointment. Thank you.


To both of you, I'm sorry for being so self-centered with my posts..

I wish everyone the best,
Chris.

Hello again Chris

Oh yeah this is one of those things that traps me all the time – I just hate it when people actually pick me up on these kinds of apparent contradictions and can’t help thinking – well they’re BOTH true, sometimes I feel like I can enjoy being with friends, other times the very thought of people terrifies me. I don’t see any contradiction in it but it does get annoying having it challengingly pointed out and putting me on the defensive (some Ts make a habit of being ‘challenging’ like this, nothing like stating the obvious as if it’s something client has never seen before .)

Hey if you don’t feel seeing a T is right for you, or you’re just not ready, there’s no pressure. Being in therapy can be difficult so it helps if you actually WANT to be there in the first place otherwise it could get too fraught and send you running. Let us know what you decide?

Torn

Just wanted to add a separate post for others who read here – the older you get I think it is true that AvPD gets easier and less overwhelming – you just end up learning how to relate to people and how to feel more comfortable in previously intolerable situations simply by virtue of having to do it over the years. Not sure that that’s any comfort to anyone, not in the present moment, but I think I’m trying to say to those who are still quite young, it DOES get better, it DOES get easier even without you having to consciously DO anything about it.

Torn

Update about me – got a letter from Pdoc yesterday which is a resume of our second meeting last week and he confirms that I have Paranoid Personality Disorder. I don’t see that as any kind of contradiction with my P’s assessment of me as AvPD – I think on the whole I feel more ok with having two dx’s that very accurately between them describe my internal set up. It’s a relief to have my own perceptions of my problems validated by ‘expert’ others.

I wonder how others here deal with potentially paranoid scenarios, such as when you’re convinced others are talking about you or laughing at you or thinking secret negative judgements and criticisms of you? The best I can manage is to rationalize it and tell myself that it’s *probably* my paranoia and that my own fear is creating this conviction. But it doesn’t make it any less real or frightening or painful .

Torn

Hi Torn,

I agree with that. It all depends on the day, I guess. When I'm called out on it, I attempt to explain why. It usually ends up sounding like a bunch of excuses though. Lol. Does your T like to challenge you?

Believe me, I WANT to see one. I'm just not too sure if I'll become comfortable enough to talk about anything that would help. Or manage to keep up on the appointments (mostly due to my constantly-changing sleep schedule). I'm going to try my best. I will let you know after the appointment


Does it help having a name put to the thoughts and feelings? I bet it puts a lot of worries at ease. And it sounds like you do better than me with the paranoia thing, if that helps at all. Lol.

(Just figured out how to do this quote thing. Lol.)

I'm sorry you go through that.. I really hope it gets better for you. I don't know if it will mean anything..but I can relate to every bit of that. My phone is my way to feel 'less noticeable'. I don't know if it brings more attention to me or not, but it keeps me from watching for people looking at me. A friend of mine brought up how I always get on my phone as soon as we walk through the Wal-Mart doors. I had to think about why I do, probably because the front is always the most crowded. Is there any certain situation that causes those thoughts for you?

Hope you are doing well ,
Chris.

Definitely! I always knew I was paranoid but didn't fit the 'CIA are out to get me' definition of it so yet another thing to add to the confounding of my own perceptions. So to have a Pdoc relatively independently give me PPD as a dx was very validating.

I dunno about dealing with paranoid stuff so well, I'm sure other people have ways and means of coping with these fears and experiences that I don't know about and that could be helpful. Even just sharing common experiences is helpful and less isolating.

Lol I love this, I think it's great. So many people use mobiles in public that it's hardly likely to stand out as something odd is it? And it sounds like a really useful type of 'defence'. Good idea!

Thanks for replying Chris

Torn

That's good . That's always confusing, for me. I read up on PD's a lot, and I meet all but a few of the symptoms..so I move on the the next one. It's good that your Pdoc was able to dx you. Are you working with him/her on ways to cope with the paranoia?

I agree, it helps out a lot. Now..everyone should share their coping methods. Lol.

Yeah you're right. And it is useful. But when you're phone dies..it's awful. Pretending to text someone on a phone that's dead doesnt work out very well. I tried that once, and forgot that I had already said my phone died. Haha.

You're welcome

Have a good day/night!
Chris.