I think I belong here

After a few months of depression, research, arguments, talking to people on here, and endless ruminating over what is wrong with me... I think I've found it.
Frankly I can't believe the only personality disorder I've been diagnosed with is OCPD. Is it common to have more than one PD? Seems to be pretty common.

I think I have OCPD, APD and DPD. I'm just about ready to see a clinical psych, should get confirmation there. But what I'm reading about these disorders makes sense. It totally resonates with me.
The thing is, some other diagnoses have too. But... they are diagnoses that can explain my symptoms, the same ones I think are explained by the PDs. Since PDs are kinda all-encompassing, is it surprising that I've found lots of other conditions that almost explain all my problems, but not quite? I know I have low self-esteem, and that's part of a lot of conditions.

But I'm pretty sure this is it. Avoidant I identify with most, followed by Dependent. I imagine many people suffer from both.

Yep. I absolutely hate customer service. I like my dry cleaning job because most of my work is done alone, with clothes instead of people. When customers come in, I'm intensely uncomfortable. The tiniest things scare me. I worry about asking them how they're doing, because I don't think I'll sound sincere. Then if they ask me first, I feel like they must think I'm a terrible person for not asking them. When I'm waiting for their receipt to print, I worry that maybe I'm supposed to say something to fill the silence. The whole time I'm sure I'm going to do or say something that will make them think I'm totally weird. As soon as they leave I know I'm being stupid, I know for my part I barely pay attention to cashiers, and certainly don't care if they really care how my day was. I know it doesn't matter, won't get me fired, probably won't even result in a personal or formal complaint. And I'm "used to" it, as in I know it's going to happen every time. Knowing it helps me to not freak out as much, but it doesn't stop it.

I generally hang back until someone expresses interest in me. Then I feel a little more comfortable, but I do find myself worrying that I can't tell the difference between politeness and true interest.

This one to a lesser degree... the people I'm close with, I'm much more comfortable with. If they've been around this long, they must not think I'm a freak. But I definitely avoid saying things I think will make my boyfriend mad, and when I make decisions often have to run through a check-list in my head, to see if there's any reason it could make him mad.
Generally I'm really open with people I'm close with, but sometimes when I'm feeling particularly bad I feel like it's impossible to explain, I'll open my mouth and literally feel like the words get stuck, and I tell someone I'm fine even though I know they can tell I'm not, and I can't even make my voice convincing.

I think all the other stuff covers this.

I freak out when I have a new "social responsibility", like making phone calls or asking customers if they want to donate to a charity. I definitely do feel like people won't like me unless I give them some reason to.

Hard not to. A five-year-old could probably be a better customer service rep than me.

Absolutely. I've never sang karaoke, even though I kind of want to. I've seriously thought about practicing a song ahead of time so I sound good, and I know how ridiculous that is, because karaoke is RARELY good. I hated gym class in school and never wanted to play any new games. Once I also had a breakdown when my father asked me to play pool in front of other adults at a party. I knew I wouldn't be able to hit the ball, and couldn't bring myself to try. His insistence only made me more scared, and he finally gave up and seemed disgusted with me. I was very close with my father, and this memory stands out as one of the times I felt like I failed him. I was trying to avoid looking stupid, but in being so reluctant I feel like I embarrassed him, which is worse.

That's 7/7. Think it's safe to say it's a PD?

There's a few other things I'm curious about. How often are Avoidant and Dependent PDs diagnosed together? They seem very similar to me, and the only symptom of Dependent that I don't see as fulfilling both disorders is the unrealistic preoccupation with fears of being left alone. If you asked me if I could be alone, I'd say yes. If you asked me if I can take care of myself, I'd say yes. But the few times I've had a real reason to think my boyfriend might leave me, I felt like the world was ending. The thought that I couldn't live without him kept popping into my head, even though I couldn't explain why, or even what that meant.
But it's likely I have this one too. I do have to ask advice a lot, to the point it bothers my boyfriend. He's always saying I need to figure stuff out for myself, but it's been proven again and again that I make bad decisions, so I'm afraid to trust my own judgment! For a long time I depended on him to drive me places because I'm terrified of driving. I was finally becoming less uncomfortable with it when we totaled our car, so that's a moot point now. But he always takes care of our money pretty much. At least, he's the one who knows the budget, and it doesn't seem like he really wants me to take over on it, though I know it stresses him out to deal with it. I actually "pay" the rent, as in write out the check and take it to the office, but it feels like a menial task, and like he's still ultimately in control.
I feel like we have this weird dynamic of him taking my responsibilities, but then telling me I need to fend for myself. It gets even harder for me, because we're in the pattern of him taking care of that stuff. Plus, like I said, I don't trust my judgment, and it seems like he doesn't either.

Anyway this is getting long-winded, so just one more question: what type of therapy do you find most helpful? I was thinking CBT or DBT might be good for me. Is that still the best option for PDs, since they creep into every aspect of your life and all you can do is combat specific behaviors?

Also, sort of a rhetorical question... but how come I've been diagnosed with OCPD when it's the one of the Cluster C PDs that I fulfill the least criteria of? Then again I was diagnosed when I was 17, and I suppose a lot of symptoms of Avoidant and Dependent could just be seen as being a teenager. Especially Dependent.

you could have Avpd, telling that from one post is difficult. you seem to have anxiety about beinging judged.

you also seem to struggle with it at work, which isn't really the case with me. i'm fine at work and random strangers ( when going to the supermarket), those people will never see me again so i tend to care less.

Now if it was a friend/relative or even a stranger i'd like to get to know better, that's where the fear for critisism/rejection really comes in.

As for therapy, i should get group therapy started this month, which is the first therapy i'll be following. what's CBT and DBT stand for if I may ask?

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and Dialectical Behavior Therapy, which is a specific kind of CBT. There's a better explanation here.

I have fear of both strangers and people I'm close with, but in different ways. With strangers it's more immediate and constant. They don't know me, so I have to act like a normal person, whereas my boyfriend knows me well enough that he will understand my idiosyncrasies, I don't have to try so hard. A stranger has no sense of me, and the little things that might make up for my social ineptitude. All they see is what I present to them, and I'm not very good at presenting myself. I just want to disappear. I wish a computer could do the part of the job where I have to talk to people. It could, really. A kiosk would be just as effective as me, without the strain of small talk, which also scares me.

With my boyfriend or family, I don't constantly fear rejection, because they've already put up with me this long. But when something does happen, like falling into depression, or having to give bad news, or fess up to a mistake, that's when I get scared. It's a different kind of fear, more rational it seems to me, because I can imagine the repercussions. I always think if I make my boyfriend mad, he might leave me. Or never trust me again. Or a million other real, rational outcomes. Whereas with strangers, I really couldn't tell you what I'm afraid of. I know I shouldn't care, since they don't know me. Although at work, I do see the same people a lot, so there is more of a pressure to look like I care, because I'm almost always the person they see when they come in. I'm the face of the company, even if 99% of the mistakes that make customers mad aren't my fault. I feel like I'm supposed to form a rapport with our regular customers. And I have with a few, but only the least threatening of them. The ones that are usually smiling and sometimes chat me up, I'm not so afraid of. But the ones who come in looking like this is just one stop on their day of mindless errands, or the ones who have been rude, or even look like they might be rude, I hate dealing with. Sometimes I feel like they can see my weakness. It makes me uncomfortable, but I flip-flop between that and feeling like it's a good thing, since if they know I'm afraid, at least they won't think I'm purposely being aloof, which apparently is how I sometimes come off.

The only time I really feel no threat at all from someone is if our roles are reversed, and I'm the customer. Cashiers don't bother me at all, they may as well be part of the scenery. Asking a floor associate for help in a retail store makes me slightly uncomfortable, but nothing like other situations. I think it's this sense that retail workers aren't really people; they're just part of the big machine that is a retail establishment. It's an odd thought that I think most people feel but won't admit to. Having worked in retail and seen it from both sides though, I'm pretty confident that that's how most people feel. Plus, when I'm the consumer I'm in control. I can chat with the cashier or essentially ignore them, it's up to me. I won't have socialization forced on me, usually. The only exception is when a thick accent keeps me from understanding what they're saying to me. Then I start to sweat. I know it makes everyone uncomfortable, but for me it's worse. I'm extremely sensitive to other people feeling uncomfortable or embarrassed because I feel it so keenly, and I'm terrified I'm going to make them feel bad if I let them know I can't understand them. In any other situation -- at work, walking down the street, meeting someone new -- I feel like we're at the other person's home field. I let other people dictate the terms of our interaction, because I don't know what they want and am too afraid of choosing wrong.

I dunno, I'm going to see a psychiatrist soon for evaluation, I haven't been evaluated since I was around 17 and I'm now 25. We'll see what the psych says, but I kinda feel that the constancy of my fear lends itself to being a PD. Personality disorders are seen in long-standing patterns of behavior, and affect every aspect of life because they color the way you see the world. My fear of disapproval is like that. It stops me from doing things I would like to, it makes me feel trapped into responsibilities, like work, that other people will rationalize and agree willingly to. Of course I work for the money, and my future. But the bigger motivator is fear. In everything, I feel like I'm either running away from a threat, or running to a safe place. It makes me feel like I don't even get to make choices. The only choice possible is to escape.

Hi SoScorpio

I can relate to a lot of what you say in respect of AvPD symptoms, your description of a retail environment is exactly how I used to see it, from both sides too. I'm better at chatty small talk now and can turn that on when I want to without it worrying me like it used to, but it is still an act really. I agree that you're probably most aligned to here - AvPD.

I'm definitely not DPD, in a way I'm surprised that someone could be both because for me AvPD is all about isolation, self sufficiency, "I am an island" sort of thinking and being dependent seems to contradict that. Your post made me read up on DPD though and gave me a new perspective on a previous relationship so thanks for that

Good luck with the evaluation, hope it is a foward step for you.

Thanks, I'm making calls to ask about insurance and hopefully make an appointment today.

I see what you mean about AvPD and DPD seeming to be mutually exclusive, but in my case I think having both would best explain my situation. For the most part I am an island, like you say. I haven't had any real close friends since high school. But ever since I had my first boyfriend at age 13, I've rarely been single. It's almost like, for me, my SO takes the place of all the other people I could want a relationship with. It's too hard to make friends, but romance has always come fairly easily to me. Confessing attraction or being the one to make the first move is very hard, and I rarely do it. But if someone expresses interest in me, then I feel the fear of rejection lift. That person becomes the one person I tell everything to, who I don't have to worry about accepting me, because they already have. As long as I can keep up whatever drew them to me -- and this isn't hard because after the initial plunge, courtship is the one time I don't feel pressured to put on a mask -- then I'm golden. My boyfriend of almost 5 years is also my best friend, and even back in high school I think I was closer with my boyfriends than most people, who would tell more to their best friends than their boyfriend or girlfriend. A relationship equals stability and security to me. Maybe I learned this from my parents, who got remarried a total of five times between them after they divorced when I was 3. Single life has never seemed an option to me. And when I was a kid, my parents encouraged me to depend on them. They actually spelled it out, saying my only responsibilities were to get good grades and keep my room clean, and as long as I did those, they would take care of the rest.
I've always been dependent on someone. After I graduated high school, I was receiving monthly SSI benefits from my father's death, and had a couple thousand from his life insurance in a secure account. I wasn't in any hurry to get a job, and was still living with my mom and stepdad. After a physical altercation with my stepdad (initiated by me, this was a very unstable time in my life) my mom sent me to visit my grandparents in Minnesota for a month. I ended up meeting a boy and staying for three years, for all of which I lived with either a family member or my boyfriend's mother. I had a job briefly at Kmart, which I left when I started dating a superior. That relationship turned out to be short-lived, because although he offered to support me, I realized I just wasn't physically attracted to him. After that ended I didn't get another job, and I'm ashamed to say that at the time, I felt no shame in living off the hospitality of others, not even using my SSI for groceries. It's unfathomable to me now, but at the time it just felt natural to be taken care of, I felt like people should always take care of me.

I'm much more independent now, thanks in large part to my current boyfriend, who wouldn't stand for what he sees as laziness. Which I guess it is. But I still have deep-rooted dependency issues I think. I feel like I wouldn't know what to do if he left me. First of all I don't make enough money to pay for an apartment here in Denver. Maybe a studio, but even that would leave me only a couple hundred a month for food and other bills. Our fortunes are financially tied together, but it's more than that. He's basically the center of my world, the anchor that keeps me from trying to go in every direction at once. I've also learned that I make bad decisions. I either think something to death and do nothing, or I think not at all and act on instinct, and do the wrong thing. So I feel dependent on him to make decisions, in a way. Anything involving money that's more than buying lunch, I ask him first. Anything at work (we work together) that I'm not sure how I should deal with, I ask him. I just don't know how to be alone, and I feel like I don't know enough about adult life, things like how insurance or mortgage works, how to do my taxes, all that complicated stuff that adults do. My mom did my taxes for a few years, since then I haven't done them at all. I know I should, but there's a ton of other things I should be doing too, and lately I'm just trying too hard to keep myself together mentally to worry about the rest. I guess I always somehow thought that my mental difficulties meant that I should be taken care of by someone. Only in recent years have I started to see the difference between me, and someone like our roommate, who's a schizophrenic who can't remember to take her meds or keep appointments, and would never have even thought of applying for disability benefits until we suggested it. I have some of the same issues as her, but I've come to realize that I'm probably capable of being self-sufficient, and maybe she isn't. I'm just too afraid.

Did you bond with your parents pretty closely growing up? You mentioned your mother doing your taxes, do you have a pretty close bond with your mother, yet? You also have a strong bond with a boyfriend, which you talk about, so it is unlikely you will be diagnosed with an avoidant personality disorder.

The bond is the thing.

In counseling I found out I have avoidant aspects to my personality, because I happened to have unfit parents who could not, would not, bond with me, not even as a baby or when I was growing up.

Since I don't bond with people, since I can't trust people, this is what makes a person too scared to associate with others, until you just don't make trusting bonds, anyhow it would be extremely hard to!

It sounds to me like you will be diagnosed with a pretty severe anxiety disorder. But the only way to really find out is to find a professional. It's hard for anybody to diagnose themselves, no matter how many books you read, because you don't have the education or clinical experience or, maybe most important, the objectivity.

I have high hopes for you, however, from what you have written it sounds to me like you have the optimism and motivation to conquer your anxieties and have a functional, rewarding life.

yes you are very articulate. i understand everything you've said, and me and anybody else here could probably relate to at some time i their lives. i hope your boyfriend treats you good, you seem like you may be very shy, i know i was excruciatingly shy as a young adult. it does take time to get into the swing of things about a job or any other activity.good luck

Hmm. I was close with my parents as a kid, more with my dad than my mom, and he died when I was 14. I don't really consider myself "close" with my mom, in that I don't really tell her much about my life unless I need her help. But if you compare it to my boyfriend's relationship with his parents, then you'd definitely say my mom and I are close. My boyfriend only calls his parents a couple times a year. If we lived in his hometown it might be different though. My mom happens to live here, and his parents don't.

What you say about bonding though is interesting. I had been looking at Schizoid PD but that was what kept snagging me, that I do form bonds, just with a very select few people. Outside these few people, it's just like you say, I can't trust people. I assume that people only talk to me if they want something of me. I assume that people are either indifferent or opposed to me.
I thought the avoidance was the key... hence the name. I go to such lengths to avoid any situation that might lead someone to express anger with me, even situations that most people wouldn't even consider stressful. I can see this type of personality arising out of a lack of bonding, like you describe with your parents. But it seems just as likely to happen to someone like me, who had supportive parents, and then learned that the rest of the world isn't so accepting. I have a really hard time relating to people, because I almost always see them as threats. I find it hard to put myself in someone else's shoes, except when I'm imagining how they might respond to me. And then I think it to death, and no one can understand why I don't just do something, instead of making a list of all the possible outcomes and trying to plan accordingly. That part might be the OCPD. But I think it's telling that this aspect of my personality almost always comes out when I'm thinking about people. I don't think about my budget, or general work duties, or rearranging my living room in that way. But if I have to tell someone something negative, or know I'm going to be in a social situation I'm not comfortable with or have no experience with, my OCPD goes into overdrive and I run through conversations in my head, trying to predict what the other person will say, so I'll know what to say next. Things just seem like a much bigger deal to me than other people.
Case in point: as I was writing this at work, my boyfriend called me from home to ask if I took his cigarettes this morning. I did, because mine were nowhere to be found, and when that happens after I've had a day off, it's almost always because I left them out and someone else moved them. I checked my coat pocket where I always keep mine, they weren't there. In my mind that meant there was another pack somewhere at home, and since I didn't have time to look before leaving for work, but my boyfriend will have time since he doesn't come in until the afternoon, that seemed a good enough reason to take them. I left him a few on the table to get him through the morning. But he was mad that I took them, saying it's not his responsibility to look after my smokes. I know it isn't, but the equation in my mind still says there's a pack there for him to find, which is probably only missing because he moved them from where I originally had them.
It's really not that big a deal. But even to you guys I have to explain myself! I feel like if I just say, "Sorry, my bad" something horrible will happen. I can't explain it. It's what I end up doing in the end anyway, but not before I try to defend myself anyway I can. And somehow I feel like it's one of those things that could turn into a relationship-ending fight, which is ridiculous. We're much more stable than that. But that's the feeling I have when he's telling me it's not cool to take his cigarettes. It feels like an imminent threat, I get flutters of anxiety and have to remind myself not to respond in a hostile manner.
It's like this every day. The smallest thing, a customer not being happy that our prices have gone up, my boyfriend being annoyed, the thought of calling my boss to let them know I'll be five minutes late. Every one of these situations feels like combat to me. Not that I've ever been in real combat, but that's what I imagine: a fight-or-flight response, heart rate rising, mind racing, looking desperately for a way out, and finding that the only way is to admit fault, which scares the crap out of me because I think the second I do, I'll be viewed as worthless.

Another example: The other day I basically accused my roommate of taking a jar of my weed. I know she's done it before, but I very rarely confront her, or anyone for that matter. I spent days looking everywhere for this jar so I could be absolutely sure before saying anything to her. A couple days before, I asked her to check the dates on her jars, because I was looking for one that was bought on my birthday. When I asked two days later, she had thrown out her empty jars, making it impossible to identify the one she took. So I decided to make it known that I knew she took it, even though this time it may have been an accident. But I still couldn't put it in any blunt words. I just couldn't fathom what I would say that could be so direct, and instead ended up telling her "Happy birthday from my step-dad" because he was the one who gave me what was in that jar. So passive-aggressive, I feel like a jerk but that was about the safest way I could think of to express my anger. And still, I found myself shaking uncontrollably afterward. And later, when my boyfriend suggested I try to let her know we're okay by offering her some of the food I was cooking, I found it so difficult. I stood in the bathroom opening and closing my fists, trying to plan exactly what words I would use, trying to calm myself so my voice would come out natural, instead of still sounding hostile like I felt. But I did it, and my boyfriend was right, she started acting normal again, and offered to give me some nugs out of her next batch as an apology. She didn't actually say "sorry", but I know she has similar avoidant problems as me, so I knew she was apologizing. The feelings of terror I had before offering her food made absolutely no sense, and the results prove it. But that doesn't stop me from feeling that way every time something like this comes up. I'm so terrified of people thinking badly of me that I won't even call them out when I think they're wrong.

I guess my theory is that even if I don't present exactly like AvPD, it's probably because some of my other problems make it look different. If it's possible to be AvPD and DPD (and I don't see why not, as I already have OCPD and they're all in the same cluster) then my dependence on one or two very important people might make it look like I'm not avoidant. How can I avoid the people I feel I need?

As it's true that we cannot diagnose ourselves, we have to be sure we find a doctor that actually listens to what our symptoms are. Hell if I diagnosed myself I'd be in all kinds of trouble. I think I have enough diagnoses anyhow. Whether I believe they are right or not.... for now. A lot of my symptoms fall under personality disorders. But I'm told it's because I have extreme anxiety and bipolar disorder. I find it getting worse and worse the older I get. Not the bipolar stuff, but the pd symptoms. I am terrified of asking for help of any kind even from my family. However I hate the idea of not having them in my life. Even though I moved almost 900 miles away. I do have a fear of abandonment, but it's short lived. I do get into many relationships, but I find reasons they are not going to work and I act out on them. I love my family but can only handle them in small doses. I moved out of my house at 17. I've always taken care of myself and others, however I am no longer interested in helping people that I have helped and the only time they contact me is when they need help. I've always needed to feel like I'm loved and cared about to the point I would do anything to prove it, sometimes I feel compulsed to do it. The anxiety gets really bad. But that's not how I feel with people I don't know. Those people are different. I cannot ask a sales floor person for help. I get panicky asking for cigarettes which you have to do or you won't get them. I cannot make a decision on my own almost ever. Seriously, even going for a walk because it's the best thing for me to do takes me forever to decide to do it. I'm in a position right now where I'm relying on a friend/ex boyfriend to help me because I fell apart completely after he dumped me because I kept threatening to leave because I would get drunk and act a fool, but when it came to talking to him sober about why I feel the things I feel I couldn't. Just like with doctors they ask me my symptoms and I go blank. Moving I can't even ask people I know for help, and get upset that nobody helped. I hint at needing help but cannot directly ask for it. I'm sorry I just did that on your post. I was intending to tell you that I feel very similar to how you feel. Except a few differences, but I cannot remember where I was going with that. I'm sorry.

No I know what you mean. I have some similar problems but not so bad usually. I hate talking on the phone, and I always want to be alone if I'm making any important call, from making appointments to calling in for work. Today I had to call my ex-boss about dropping off my key (just got laid off) and my boyfriend walked into the room just as I hit "call" and I almost freaked out. I already have trouble making phone calls, if anyone else is listening I get super nervous, like I'm making a speech. I don't even like ordering pizza on the phone. I can ask for cigarettes, but have trouble asking for things like extra condiments in a restaurant, or even telling them they messed up my order. I really hate asking some kinds of questions. Not like if I'm having a conversation with an acquaintance, not personal questions. But asking an employee for help, asking how something works, asking what I should do or for help. Only with strangers though.

I have my first pdoc appointment in a couple weeks, see what they make of it.

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I can't even call my mom sometimes. I'm the same way when making calls. If I can even make them and I pace the whole time I'm on the phone. I'm the same way with the orders. Omg. Yeah saying its wrong, I usually have someone else do it. I was at the hospital and couldn't even ask for a pencil let alone my meds. Hell after my cesarean section in which I lost my son, I had a hard time telling the nurse that I thought my iv meds weren't working. It registered I pushed the button, every time, but no medication was coming out. She told me it was impossible that I must have pushed it too many times too soon. Four hours later my blood pressure was really low. And I was feeling like I was fading away, they finally actually checked the medicine and realized that it had not been working. I can honestly say in some situations, I would die before asking for help a second time. I'm so happy you have your appointment. I just wish doctors reevaluated instead of taking a prior diagnosis.

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