AvPD vs. Depression

It's interesting to see so many threads about "What is the difference between avpd and social anxiety" because my own confusion is actually:

What is the difference between avpd, just having had depression for a long time, and having both?

Feeling worthless and withdrawing from social things are symptoms of both, so that's why i'm confused.

Personal rambling below, optional to read. Much longer than i intended, so sorry!

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My therapist brought up that i seem to have avoidant-PD-ish tendencies and wants to talk about it more. I went to her for depression (ex, existential angst), and didn't think to talk about social things as often because i don't really think of it as a problem i can solve, it's just me being me. I actually didn't know it was different from social anxiety until i looked it up recently, and i know i don't have social anxiety; i don't know if it's common to not be comorbid with that.

Anyway, I'm having a lot of doubts about her opinion. Yes, i relate to many aspects, like thinking i'm the worst person ever, "everything will be ok if i just don't interact with people", avoiding romantic/sexual/close intimacy, underachieving, HOWEVER...

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My impression is that avoidants almost never, ever initiate social interaction. Because that's not me. I will initiate interaction if i think: 1. It will benefit me occupationally, 2. I could make a mutually beneficial acquaintanceship, 3. I suspect that i could be attracting a friend who would treat me "badly". Face-to-face, 5-30 seconds is my ideal interaction duration, anything more than that gets to be too much pressure. I did have a lot of inner turmoil at one point wondering if i should just never leave my house again, but decided interaction is a necessary evil to get by.

Ex, i'm aware that i need to chat occasionally (a couple times a year if a friend, once a year if a distant acquaintance) (via facebook, not skype or phone) and on a rare occasion go out (every few years) and do something with a friend in order to make them like me, because they won't be willing to do favors for someone who they barely know (ex, connecting me with a job opening, or fixing a sink for free). A good portion of my aquaintances/friends never initiate contact unless i do it first, so i don't think i'm unusual in that front.

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Another impression of mine is that avoidants get incessant anxiety about what will happen during any and all interactions and intense acute feelings of self-loathing when things don't go perfectly. Because again, that's not me. It's more of a conceptual, over-arching "i shouldn't burden others with my existence", but if i decide i need to go to a store or something, it's a low-key "hello, i'm here to burden people with my existence. anyway where's the salt". I don't hate myself after every social interaction, it's just after some of them i'll get exasperated/frustrated that a flaw of mine was exposed and think, "if i had just ___, i could have avoided this interaction".

It's easier for me to interact with strangers than friends. Because there's a good chance i won't see the stranger again and i won't take up much of their mental space. But acquaintances and friends expect some sort of worthwhile interaction with me, so i have to keep putting up a front of competence and interestingness. The closer i have been with someone in the past (i'm not close to anyone now), the more awkward and inferior and exposed i feel when interacting with them.

I like being selective with sharing about my life so that i can prevent as much judgment about me as i can, but when it comes to childhood friends, they know a million things about me, and it's humiliating thinking about all the conclusions they can draw about me and my pathetic self. Ideally i would have a new set of trustworthy acquaintances every few years, so that people aren't tracking the progression of their life compared to mine and either getting jealous (thus i'm burdening people) or judging me (lazy, spoiled brat, etc, thus humiliating me).

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The last impression i get from descriptions of avoidants is they think everyone hates them. That's not me. I'm aware i'm annoying on some level to everyone, but i do think there are people who genuinely enjoy my company. And i think that first of all because other people are so much kinder than me, and can handle being around irritating people like me, while i resent others for stupid things.

And second of all, i am apparently good at projecting an image of myself that's nicer and more competent than i actually am. No one knows how selfish and unskilled i really am and no one is going to. I prefer to keep people in the dark, but occasionally the frustration at the irony builds up--the irony that someone as repungent as me gets treated well by too many people--and i lash out and tell a truth and try to scare them away.

My worst social fear (besides obvious scary things) is people relying on me emotionally, because that's my greatest weakness--my selfishness. My inability to comfort others, my resentment that they're making me feel sad. When someone expects emotional intimacy from me, i know i can't do anything but disappoint them, and i want to die (well i want to die all the time but that's not the point).

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Lastly, my therapist claiming i have avoidant tendencies pisses me off, not only because i fear appropriating the struggles of a very serious disorder, but also because:
1. She's implying my self-image is a harmful pattern of thinking instead of the actual reality that i am an unchangeably bad, unskilled person.
2. She seemed to have looked straight past the apparent psuedo-confidence "i don't need people to be happy" and saw that i do desire intimacy. I can't really help it. People are my life. Helping others and morality are my life. I just can't carry it out. Yes, i have my fantasies where i'm truly happy with relationships and best friends, but if i can't do that, i might as well accept it and own it.

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I'm obviously not asking you to diagnose/undiagnose me, just to identify:
1. if it's possible for avoidants to think this way.
2. if it's possible for this thinking to be from solely from depression.
3. if it's obviously totally and completely contradictory to AvPD.
Regardless of your conclusion, even if i don't end up having AvPD, it's a learning experience.

Welcome, themostpointless~~ I apologize for replying in such a way that you get your entire post, but wanted to be able to refer back to what you wrote.

First, I was dx'd w/a PD NOS w/avoidant features last year. I've been in therapy since August 2015. I also have what's now termed a Sensory Processing Sensitivity (HSP in the past), so some of my "features" may be due to my sensitivity to certain things rather than "avoidance."

I don't think everyone hates me, but I do, often, project my anger onto others as a way to avoid relationships. I also hate being around ignorant people - not just people who do ignorant things. I'm a perfectionist who does have some small degree of social anxiety; I can't even entertain the thought of interjecting myself into a group of people, but I'm good at one-on-one interactions.

I recognize that I project anger and I'm working on changing that. I don't think or believe I'm an unchangeably bad or unskilled person, though I am lugging around a gigantic fear of abandonment and thereby think I'm defective in ways that make me unlovable. My T is planning to retire (either w/in the next year or in 4-5 years - I think it's the former and hoping for the latter) and I would like to work w/him long enough to reduce my fear that everyone I might develop a relationship w/will bolt on me. Because of this fear, it's difficult for me to realistically attempt friendships or romantic relationships.

You mentioned that your greatest fear was being depended upon, emotionally, because your selfishness is your greatest weakness. What you go on to describe sounds much like a person who is highly sensitive to others' feelings and you resent them for making you feel badly - or feeling their feelings. You obviously have empathy, which is not a bad thing. I have trouble extricating myself from people who want to share their sad, tragic, traumatic lives w/me. However, I'm good at listening, so I end up becoming overwhelmed and resentful that they make no attempt at the typical give and take of civil conversation and don't stop to think they should be paying a therapist if they want to talk longer than 10 minutes.

You said..."and saw that i do desire intimacy. I can't really help it. People are my life. Helping others and morality are my life. I just can't carry it out." This could be part of the avoidance...or depression. Instead of saying, "I just can't carry it out," I say, "I make promises I can't keep," or "I break promises." Same difference, I think. I desire intimacy and would like to not break promises, but I'm pretty sure I'm avoiding the interactions. I don't know how to change that about me, other than to just stop telling others what I know I can't follow through on. (There's got to be a better answer to this...)

I also project the image that I'm far more competent than I am. I was raised to know how to dress and talk and present myself in the best possible light. I don't try to scare people away, but avoid situations that might put me in a bind.

The only thing I can understand of anyone, not just AvPDs, is the desire to be private. I detest Facebook, don't get on Twitter or any other social media, I hate smart phones, but I have one, so my family or T can text me. I don't enjoy talking on the phone to anyone, but prefer it to texts. I don't like talking on phones because I can't see the other person's facial expressions. I'm extremely sensitive to tones of voice and body language.

I don't think all of your issues are a result of depression, but I'm not a T. Perhaps working on some issues you'd like to change would lighten the depression...? Regardless, I wish you well and hope others on PC can help more than I did. I'll be interested to learn how you're doing going forward, so keep us posted if you care to share.

1. Yes
2. Maybe
3. No

AvPD is anxiety (a natural response to a stressful situation)
It's not a chemical imbalance and therefore not treatable/or treated with medication and...

Depression is Mood (The symptoms are experienced most days and last for at least two weeks) which is a chemical imbalance that is treated with meds.

Sorry the above sounds very robotic.

Depression can also be a result of having AvPD. Makes sense if you think about it - if you want social connections but can't have them, it will get to you after a while.

One way you can tell the difference between depression due to a brain chemical imbalance and situational depression is, if medication works, it's the former, and if it doesn't, it's the latter.

Another way to tell is to make changes to whatever situation is causing your depression and see if it improves. Change your stressful job, ditch toxic people from your life, figure out a way to improve your financial situation, do rewarding hobbies, etc. If your situational depression is due to an AvPD relationship Catch-22, unfortunately you're basically up the creek.

And the two variations aren't mutually exclusive. You can have both types of depression at the same time. If that's the case and it's not a result of AvPD, a combination of medication and lifestyle changes can tamp it down.

Thank you for your responses everyone! Maybe my therapist isn't completely wrong after all We'll see.

My most recent severe depressive episode wasn't situational; i actually attempted suicide realizing i'll never fit my standards of an acceptable human being. It's a bit ironic cuz a couple years directly before that, i was actually trying to improve: telling myself i love myself, was on medication for a few months but felt like i didn't deserve it enough so i stopped, had a different therapist who said i should respect myself more, tried to keep my hopes up. Obviously didn't work.

It's been some years since then, and i think my mood is better; i can actually enjoy things. I'm also been passively suicidal, like i was when i was younger, instead of acutely. But my relationship with myself has not gotten better; in fact i think i keep on furthering the thought processes i mentioned in my original post.

I'll just keep talking with my therapist, working on my depression, and i'll pinpoint my exact issues eventually.

Would an person with AvPD activly hurt themselves to that extreme? ( Read AvPD, not traits or tendencies)
I know an Avie may think under extreme duress but it's my understanding that's as far as it would go.

Maybe that's why your pysch said not so much AvPD but mentioned tendencies.

Maybe. But can you expand on what you mean? I'm a little confused, is being suicidal/self-destructive contradictory to AvPD?

We're not the type to actually go down that road.
Thoughts yes, but the're only thoughts that won't be acted out.

I don't really want to go in depth into this subject as it scares me.

Okay, i won't directly reply to you if the subject scares you.

But now i'm even more confused because Snap66 seems to be implying depression can't be comorbid with AvPD? Am i misinterpreting something?

No, no depression does coexists with AvPD.

Tendencies means you're not an avoidant but have traits of.
We're not going to go to that extreme of hurting ourself so thats why I would assume your psych said tendencies... not, you have AvPD.

Suicide rates for people with AvPD are extremely low, lower than the general population.

Being depressed does not automatically mean someone will commit suicide. Current figures in the US are that less than 10% of depressed people commit suicide, though 90% of suicide victims are depressed.

I think you're in a mindset where you're thinking in absolutes and trying to categorize things. There are lots of overlaps; it's not so black and white. I understand that urge, it seems protective, but understand it's not accurate.

Sorry Snap for the figures - I thought some specifics could give clarity and let the conversation move forward.

Alright.

I'm curious what study/studies you're drawing from. Is it this one?

Since this topic has veered off into a triggering area I'm going to PM you.
It's a good topic. I hope it goes back on track.

After extensive testing, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder, mixed personality disorder with dependent, avoidant, schizoid traits and dissociative identity disorder. A few years later I did personality disorder testing and got the same result. But I am only speaking from my perspective, I am not a therapist.

Yes, you can have depression and avoidant traits. I was horribly depressed for 5 or 6 years. I am glad to say that for the last year or so I have been doing better. Meds did not help me, I tried over 15 meds of various types were not helpful. Xanax and abilify numbed me some, which kept me from acting on suicidal urges. But I definitely had them.

I avoid interactions with others for various reasons, your reasons sound a lot like mine. While reading what you wrote, I pretty much thought that yeah, your t might be right about the traits. I do want to encourage you, though. In my experience you can find relief from even a PD with (lots of) therapy. My journey has not been easy, still isn't. But I am way, way better than I was.