Alcohol?

If you have any question about ability to manage it without getting drunk, in my view, you should not drink. If you were without question about your ability to manage one drink and let it go at that, then I would say, again, in my view, you probably don't have anything to worry about.

You might find it helpful to go on the Alcohol Addiction forum here and talk to some
former alcoholics who will help you understand what can happen in alcohol abuse for those sensitive to it. They know about AA and whether or not it has beneficial effects for them.

Frankly, I would never encourage a young person, especially one just beginning college life (at age, say, 17 or 18) to engage in fun-loving, alcoholic use. The personality is not set at any age, in my view, and is vulnerable, especially in youth, to many changes in views about things in life. For example, you have chosen already to tell someone that you didn't drink. May be the best thing you ever did, IMHO.

The very fact that you have chosen to write here about it is an indication that
you have some qualms about whether it is the thing to do.

Be your own advocate in this, please.

Well, I think you are right in that it is going to vary from person to person AND from drug to drug, but isn't it aso true of all symptoms and all positive responses to psychiatric drugs and all negative responses to psychiatric drugs?

Take depression. It may be accompanied by weight gain or weight loss or no change in weight. It may be accompanied by hypersomnia or by early awakenings and reduced sleep. And the differences are not only person to person but also episode to episode for the same individual or even be present, in turn, within one individual.

Some people get racing thoughts and others do not. And so on and so forth.

We react differently to the same medications. What helps one person does nothing good for the next.

We develop different side effects or no side effects - the response varies from patient to patient and depends on the dose and on the interactions between multiple drugs.

The response to a new drug by and large cannot be predicted without trying.

It is logical to conclude that the response to alcohol also depends on the person and cannot be predicted without trying. Why would it be otherwise?? What is so special about alcohol that we are urged to believe that our response to it would be a) predictable and b) uniform without variation from person to person?? It is like singling out alcohol as a bad guy.

I meant to say that within one episode in one person there can be both depressive hypersomnia and, in turn, early awakening. I used that phenomenon to illustrate the complexity of this illness.

To OP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449201/ a scholarly US result concluding that in young adults abstinence and moderate alcohol use produce the same outcomes with respect to incidence of depression. Caution: this is a study of general population of young adults.

This one is a good read: an old Harvard Medical School article about what they term "psychosocial benefits of moderate alcohol consumption".

http://www.peele.net/lib/benefits.php (by the way the website is about addictions)

They identified, back in the 1990s, a lack of consensus in what constitutes moderate drinking for optimal health and longevity.

"What Constitutes Moderate Drinking?
The definition of optimal drinking for health purposes has been fairly well accepted in the United States and United Kingdom as one or two drinks daily and at the lower end of the range for women (Department of Health and Social Security, 1995; U.S. Departments of Agriculture/Department of Health and Human Services, 1995). Going farther afield, however, this range may expand. Grønbæk et al. (1995) found mortality-rate gains for men and women up to three to five drinks of wine daily in Denmark, as did Fuchs et al. (1995) with a sample of women in the United States. Doll (1997) summarized various factors contributing to the relativity of both reported and optimal unit consumption across national boundaries, including extremely different definitions of what constitutes a standard drinking unit and the common underreporting of alcohol consumption. Thus, in Poikolainen's (1995) cross-cultural review, minimum mortality was associated with consumption levels ranging from one to five drinks daily. In the current review, which includes ethnographic as well as epidemiologic data and covers a range of cultural settings beyond those involved in typical epidemiologic studies, moderation is an even more variable ideal."

I see that even now in 2013 moderation is still a variable idea. There still is no consensus.

Isn't that saying early death isn't associated with people who drink moderately? I think it's the same as someone who doesn't drink. I don't think this means drinking moderately makes you live longer.

I'm required to say something here...

"what?"....says I

"yes you are!"... says the need to say things.

it's such a shame that I manage to allign my bipolarities with excess alcohol...

it's like a freaking lucky dip I never know whats gonna happen?

it was a real mind my own business of mine before I even knew I was bipolar...

and is it hurting you?...says the need to challenge...

yes it hurts and yet the transaction takes place anyway

....looks that way...

basically just sayin'...

I don't have a clue?

why does anybody get into the alcohol?

I forgot to mention that I was advertising boxed wine because you don't have to uncork it. You have a nozzle that you either twist, pull a lever, or push a button. You don't even need to take the box out of the fridge, just take your cup and get your wine.

I don't think anyone WANTS to embody that stereotype. It's something drunk guys say to me when I ask for a beer. It's really not hat bad, I believe that over time you develop a positive association with the taste of beer.

In terms of early alcohol exposure: I absolutely agree. In Ohio it's legal to give your children a drink (but only YOUR children.) My parents never let me get drunk and I was so happy to have the opportunity to learn how to drink at my house alone with my Boyfriend. I learned just how easy it is to get messed up. I go to the #1 Party College in the nation and I have seen and heard about what people get into. I have seen Freshmen who had no idea what they were doing and I am no longer surprised: It's easy to drink enough to get wasted before you know you're too drunk.

If your teen is going to go to college, you need to give them a chance to get drunk on their own. You don't want your children having their first experience in college. Personally, if I have children, when they get old enough I'm getting them a six pack, tell them to stay home, and drink all they want. They'll learn.

Also: I got boxed wine at a grocery store names Kroger, I get it for a great price with my card. I have had only a few tastes of wine years before; my parents only drank wine on their anniversary. I have only recently had one heavenly glass of peach wine; tasted like peachy nectar!! Otherwise, don't ask me what good wine tastes like, I don't know.

Thank you, Odee, I will try Kroger. As my primary reason for drinking wine is Alzheimer's prevention (both my grandmas suffered from this disease in the years preceding their demise) and only secondary, taste, I think Kroger will do. I have never heard of more expensive wine being better for one's health.

I totally agree with you about alcohol consumption by teens in parental guidance and presence. Much better than on their own in college!

I was once carded for buying COOKING wine (food cooked with wine turns non-alcoholic, mind you) for making a dessert while visibly pregnant with my SECOND child. So in California it is legal for me to drive and have children but not drink? As in "drinking requires more responsibility than parenting and driving on the highways"? Well, it does not happen anymore and should it happen now, I would feel flattered but back then I was not old enough to start feeling flattered about such things and was outright annoyed, because I had dashed into my local grocery store with a credit card in my pocket, without my purse, and could not prove being of age. The bottle had to go back on the shelf.

The long article about psychosocial benefits of alcohol, link above, reports that "cultures that successfully inculcate moderate drinking practices (such as the Jewish and Chinese) matter-of-factly accept youthful drinking as an opportunity for learning accepted social behavior - a model of socialization recommended by Lowe and Foxcroft (1993)."

I am bipolar and an alcoholic. I have drank on meds and have gotten sick by mixing the both. I take lithium so it dehydrates you and so does alcohol so it's not good. I'm not a dr but I don't see one or two being a problem but none for me is better.
Good luck.

I am always amazed at the number of posts that any thread with alcohol consumption gets. I appreciate that we all have a lot of advice to offer a young person. I believe that college students need to learn moderation whether on medication or not.
Also, I believe that we bring too many different opinions, advice from doctors, research, reactions to certain meds, etc. to all be on the same page.
Personally, my pdoc says that a couple of glasses of wine are within the limits of not affecting my meds. My t, however, understands that alcohol can be a problem with me and approaches her advice and guidance in a different manner. My t works to help me find solutions to make me healthier in my mind and physical being, while my pdoc approaches my treatments clinically.
The bottom line is that the professionals can help those with bp and on meds to understand what is allowable for them when drinking alcohol and no one should be embarrassed to ask this question.
Bluemountains

I agree that there are many, many reviews, research analyses, etc. that
keep us from being on the same page. However, Blue Mountains, I think
it's helpful to get it all out there so that people make their own decisions about how to manage things in their lives.

It's ultimately a "be one's own advocate" in my view.

It's interesting that your psychiatrist and therapist have different views of how to treat the matter.

We know that many alcoholics drink to relieve the symptoms of mental illness. We know that others drink because of an allergy to alcohol.
There are as many reasons, perhaps, as there are people.

I just know that it's easier not to participate in it than it is to get over
addiction to it. And who among us knows from the very beginning whether we have a problem with becoming addicted to it?

The teenage years are like "trying on outfits to see which one fits", according to my psychiatrist. With that in mind, alcohol temptations
may be too strong for a young mind to grasp immediately. So I suggest that the teenager be taught to be abstinent until full maturity is reached.

I know that there are strong rebuttals against that, but in my view, it
needs to be open so that everyone expresses the truth as he, she sees it.

I appreciate your view, especially, because I know that you are a
conscientious person with a masters who is teaching young people
and loves them. I see your points readily, but am a strong believer
in mine, also.

Some of us are never going to be on the same page, again, for numerous reasons.

Thanks for your reply on this. It's important, I think.

Hamster ,

Yes I take Halcion and a xanax for sleep.( your memory amazes me

Genetic, you are correct no one knows if they can be addicted whether it is to alcohol or fast food or eating the entire tub of icecream or a 10 lb cheesecake .. All of those things can be an addiction and will harm a person health wise ,and I would guess depress a person.

In general I just worry that someone will come here asking for help and opinions and they only hear the negatives.... I personally enjoy hearing everyones thoughts, But I am at a place in my life where I can decide what it good in my life and what is not.

OP good luck I hope you can use all the replies in a way to works for you in your personal life.

Yes, and you're mature, Morethingswrong. Seventeen and eighteen year olds aren't, generally. It takes years to develop strong reasoning capacity and hard work, too.

Some are way out ahead of others in that way.

Genetic, I agree with that.... But there are exceptions of course. lol

In my case my daughter was 16 the first time she had a drink here in our home, every since then she would have a drink maybe 6-8 times a year. she went off to college and never did the wild things . She turned 21 this last year and alcohol is not a big deal for her, she can buy anything she wants... but seldom does ...

She swears that my exposing her to it early took away the thrill of it . Her and I went out drinking while I was down in Florida , felt damn good ! stumbled into a cab to head back to the hotel. Oh yeah shes Bipolar I too.

I still feel that the patient and the doctor need to agree or disagree about whether a drink is good or not.

There is no simple answer to this touchy topic .

Hi Genetic,
I'm sorry I didn't explain my treatment fully. My pdoc and t aren't in disagreement. They just perform their chosen fields in the ways they were trained. My pdoc is not a trained therapist; therefore, while she cares for me as a patient, her focus in that care is to make sure that my prescribed meds are working and how alcohol use will impact the effectiveness of the drugs. Meanwhile, my therapist, who knows my personal history and needs, helps me to keep negative behaviors, whether these be alcohol use or something else, in check.
Neither of these professionals are in contact with each other on a consistent basis. There currently is no need. At times there has been, but this isn't over alcohol use.

My point in my last post was to say that we all bring many experiences with our advice. Even with research and articles that some have cited, an influx of information is presented. In the case of the young poster, my advice was to use moderation if he chooses to drink. Also, his question should be presented to one of the professionals that he works with.
Bluemountains

Exactly! Well said Hamster, thanks for elaborating.

This is why I GENERALLY don't like blanket statements about ALMOST anything.

I agree 100 MILLION percent!!!

I did a persuasive speech in high school on this topic. It blows my mind that more people don't see it this way and do this with their teens. It is just SO reasonable!!!

Doc

Yes they are immature, which is why the overwhelming vast majority of them will succumb to peer pressure and try to drink behind their parents' backs in a risky, less than optimal environment for a first time drinking experience. Yes, even if, and I dare say (from my experiences), ESPECIALLY if, they are taught abstinence.

Parents always think that THEIR kid won't do that. Well, guess what? My friends and I fooled all of our parents and most of them STILL don't have a clue what we got into in high school.

....And we were the "good kids" that graduated top of the class and were held to MUCH higher standards than some others our age.

Like I said we fooled everyone and it is just sheer luck and grace that we were never badly hurt or killed in some of our "adventures in alcohol".

Teach them how to do it responsibly at home and you will know they are safe.

Respectfully,
Doc

I must say that I have known very, very few Jews with alcohol problems and zero Chinese alcoholics. I think that part of the problem with the rampant American alcoholism is the lack of gradual and reasonable introduction of alcohol to young people within the family as part of the tradition. There is just no culture of alcohol consumption. And what do American kids drink as a rule? Soft drinks, OMG. I went on a date with a guy from Oklahoma a couple of days ago. Even though he is very politically progressive and makes a point of it, telling how he has nothing to discuss with his ultra-conservative Oklahoman schoolmates when he goes back to see his dad, he is still from Oklahoma. That is a fact. At least I thought that was the cause of his pairing the very best and juiciest lamb we had at the restaurant with... THREE glasses of diet Coke. To spoil this wonderful food with a tasteless fizzy drink! Of course lamb needs to be paired with a bold red wine. They belong together. So I attributed his food and drink choices to the fact that he is from Oklahoma city and not, say, Brussels. Well, after the date he said that he takes Lexapro for depression. So now I am not so sure his Oklahoman origin is at fault. Maybe his p-doc gave him the usual blanket ruling "no alcohol" and he follows it blindly. Or maybe he did conduct a valid experiment and determined that for him personally even a little alcohol is depressing, although I doubt that.

Besides the T and the p-doc, there is also the GP. It is the GP's job to see to the optimal overall health of her patients. The question as to the alcohol consumption needs to first go to the GP, because alcohol consumption affects very many areas that are non-psychiatric. There is no reason to be fixated on psychiatry. We still need to live long and happy lives, and alcohol plays a role both in the "long" and the "happy" part of the equation. Alcohol in moderation improves cognitive function across ages (http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/InT...092766793.html - a big British study and not in the elderly) and does a host of other good things. Some psychiatrists do care about the overall health of their patients but many just look at the psychiatric symptoms in isolation. So the first inquiry needs to go to the GP. That is what I did when I was taking up wine (again, wine because I like it and dislike other types of alcohol - other types of alcohol including beer work just as well for the cognitive function and the like, so I do not want to introduce a bias in favor of wine) as a preventative measure. She said it was a good idea and deferred to the p-doc for drug interactions only. Her approach is evidence-based, which it should be.

So while T and p-docs are important, at least one medical professional needs to be in charge of the full picture. And we, too, need to think about the full picture because even though we have bp, we are still people.

Thank you! But it is true. To believe the blanket prohibitionist "advice" is akin to believing that the p-doc has a crystal ball and can tell in advance that his patient would react negatively to alcohol. Then, may I ask, why does the doctor not use his mighty crystal ball to tell in advance how his patient would react to AD's, AP's, MS's, sleep medicines, etc.? Why does the patient need to go through all the pain of trial and error?? Why such a selective use of the crystal ball?

To each his own.

I had school children (in high school, seniors) who told me that they could go any place in Richmond and get any drug they wanted in 15 minutes. That was 45 years ago. I can imagine what youngsters are exposed to in today's world, not just in the United States.

My hope is that they are getting parental guidance and that they have enough foundation and security in themselves to know to leave things alone that can be harmful to them.

People do, as Blue Mountains said, in my view, bring their experiences with their understanding when they come to the forum. My experience was that drugs--and alcohol is a drug--were harmful. It isn't a blanket statement to say that alcohol kills brain cells just as heroin does.

Cognitive function? That's the first thing to sink in drinking heavily. (Please, no offense is intended, Blue Mountains.)

Most of us take medications here. We rely on them to assist with cognitive functions, emotional stability and social functioning levels to some extent. All the while we know that the more we take, the greater the likelihood that adverse conditions will sooner or later emerge from the use of them, although they are needed to mask the illness' symptoms (at least until the causes of bipolar illness are known and are curable).

Many have seen more than I have about the results of drinking too heavily and the pain involved in trying to stop and the difficulty in trying to clear the damage from it in the lives of loved ones. To lose a love to drugs is, maybe, the most painful experience one must endure in life.

My experience was that I had one senior student in high school who could not put down heroin. His father had given up on him, literally. The boy was never able to keep his head off the desk the entire time he attended. Dropping out of high school was his choice--limited as that was. He was deserted by his family. I've often wondered what happened to him.

Someone has mentioned the negative approach to this. I have it, I feel sure, about drugs. A friend said 40 years ago that "there won't be enough mental institutions in this country to care for all those damaged by drugs in our lifetime".

I read "Alcholics Anonymous" not for the attempt to learn a cure; it was read to enlighten me about what excessive and uncontrollable alcoholic consumption does to the individual physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I see the changes in some wonderful people on the addiction forum who have been through addiction and overcome it admirably.

This is a wonderful social group who try to keep the positive in view at every possible level. I wish that were the level of life for those involved in drug use; the other side is not pleasant nor is it positive.

Youngsters need and want direction and leadership in the teen years. They may protest it, but they need it. They are not fully adults wise enough to make the best decisions for their lives in many cases. Many do make wise decisions, but for those who donot or have a "rose-colored view" of how life is going to be for them, a rude awakening is in store for the drug abusers. Hey, it was Socrates who said that not many ever learn to reason strongly and doing so requires groveling to obtain the skill.

I wish you all well, but have strong opinions about this subject, and as Blue Mountains has said, when it is brought before the group there is always the use of statistics, research findings, etc., etc., etc.

And about Chinese use of drugs, just for kicks, Pearl Buck has painted a pretty vivid picture of heroin use in China in her novels. And novels, movies, etc. have offered their share (often skewed) of some of the truth about alcoholism and other drug abuses.

Yes, alcohol is a drug and is the most frequently used in the United States, along with caffeine, but you all know that. It is naive, in my personal view, to think that Chinese, Russians, Germans, Jewish people, Americans, Indians, Canadians, --you name it-- are not subject to the same temptations and experiences that Americans have. And they all have their addicts, as well.

I hope to God that my grandchilren are spared the conditions that exist in society on this level. I think about Speed and feel such pain for what she is going through.

I hope to be able to resist posting on anything else that brings such a negative view.

Thanks for the hint.

Hamster .. whats the big deal about him having soda? Maybe he didn't order a bold red wine because he prefers soda. Maybe like me I hate paying a ridiculous amount of money for half a glass of wine. I think Lamb is one of the most disgusting things on earth to eat, I would need gallons of liquid to wash it all down with,

LOL. Quick comeback, Morethingswrong. I guess we've all let it hang out on this
subject.

I'm through with this one for good.

Have you noticed that NO ONE on the addiction forum has stepped in and offered help?They all know too much, I guess, to even attempt to persuade anyone regarding closely held gems in their lives.