[~Christina]

Hey, I'm just curious when you first started sharing your " lemon thing" If I recall correctly it was half a lemon in 8 oz cold water .. But Now I am seeing squeeze 2 lemons in 4-5 oz of water .. Is there a reason for the increase?

Is there some new study out ? or is this just a change you have used and noticed an improvement?

Oh also, did you also see the news head lines about men taking fish oil and having a very large increase of prostrate cancer?

Seems the all natural ways are also causing some great health risks.

Too much of anything is a bad thing, fish oils too. Even antioxidants can be harmful and reduce your life span if you use them as dietary supplements when you don't actually need them. I wish it wasn't so complicated.

[Anika.]

Moderation..except there are a few key things about that study, it did not point out a cause and effect, more important the study did not look into what if any supplements the participants were taking or if any or their diets The high levels of omega 3 could be caused by a variety of reasons and not exactly from fish oil. I am not quite sure why they even stated fish oil in the headlines as of yet since its pretty inconclusive.

But yes even natural can be dangerous. Fish oil can also contain heavy metals and its pretty hard to determine what exactly is in the oil you are purchasing. Fish oil also acts as a blood thinner which can create problems for some people or problems if taken in a high dose or before surgery. The heavy metals freaks me out a bit.

"Canadian urologist Dr. Arthur Grabowski notes that the results of other studies on fish oil and prostate cancer conflict with the findings of this study.Fish oil has been found to cut the risk of dying of prostate cancer by 40 per cent, and prevent heart disease and strokes. "

I'm not sure about any supplements, our bodies don't always react the same to supplements as our bodies do to the real unaltered substance. And if you have a well planned diet there probably is not much need for extra supplements all the time for most people... I would think.

Sorry I know I am not Genetic, read that study today in the news tho and thats what I took from it anyways. Saw one on calcium supplements and females a while back too, leading to greater risk of heart attack. But then there is a gazzillion articles and studies about calcium prolonging life. What the efff ??? Very confusing indeed. And then there is always the question of who funded the studies.

[Nessa213]

All this stuff really just makes me very damn confused.

You take X so that you don't lose your mind. You take Y to prevent the side effects from X. But then Y+X interact with each other. So you have to take Z, while splitting your dose of X in half. But throw in some all natural A and B, but not too much! Or you'll have to take more Y to counteract your A+B.

It never ends.

(Sorry... I'm grumpy today... don't mind me.)

[Nessa213]

All of that said... I really DO like the "lemon thing". It works pretty well for me if I'm mildly "off". If I'm WAY off then there's no hope, really... lol... but in general I like it.

I do one lemon in about 8 ounces, but then I do a second glass of it. (I kind of shot gun it though over the course of about 10 or 15 minutes.) I don't know if I could take a full two lemons at once.

No, it was never half a lemon--people often use that much in a glass of tea, Christina
(as in Arnold Palmer tea which is 1/2 lemon, 1/2 tea).

I lowered the water content because it dilutes the lemon juice too much at 8 oz when
acidic levels are high; if the person has only mild irritation, 6 to 8 oz will suffice.
You can tell by the problems someone's having if the acidity levels seem really bothersome
(under strong stress,--a strong builder of acids-- sleeplessness, irritability, etc.).

Not only can too much Omega 3 essential fatty acids cause some problems as you described, perhaps, but it can also raise blood pressure. So can vitamin E. But the essential fatty acids are best utilized by taking vitamin E with them to prevent oxidation. I think the major research on the diets of people who live in an area where fish is a major diet staple, is that there are fewer cases of bipolar illness eruption than in countries in which the diet is far more acidic--as in the Western countries. Research has proven its effectiveness in calming the brain. (I would never buy a product that did not list the kind of testing done to insure that metals, etc. were not part of the ingredients in the product. That's one reason that I use Nordic Omega 3; they are tested rigidly for quality--you pay for that
in the cost of the product; but the security is worth it, in my view.)

In addition, bipolar illness decreased strikingly during World War II in the areas that
were subjected to food rationing when grains were not part of the diet. One physician
noticed that he had far fewer patients with bipolar illness during the years of rationing.
Following the return of wheat to the diets of people, bipolar illness increased.

Many of these factual stories are ignored by industries and even the government
regarding the exorphins in gluten-containing grains that were re-engineered decades
ago to produce a higher-yielding grain for 3rd world foods. "Wheat Belly" is one major
work that refutes the Food Chart for American diets with regard to use of grains.
Dr. Williams' own studies of patients prove his points.

Everyone has to use his/her own judgment about how things are working for each.

There are no iron-clad rules about anything regarding self-care, except that those
who know their bodies well are most likely to use good judgment about what is helping
and what isn't.

(You should read "Manic-Depression Illness"; there are so many studies that counteract
findings regarding the illness that I seldom find something that isn't subject to contradictions in research results.)

One example of this acidic thing I'm going to describe as the orthomolecular physician
did with a young man who came in presenting with symptoms of bipolar illness. He
described his diet for the past month as having consisted solely of diet Coke and potato
chips. When the blood chemistry came back and the physician corrected the boy's diet, he could no longer be diagnosed as bipolar.

Here's another one:
At Duke University a long-term in-patient with schizophrenia had all grains removed from
her diet and she was released from Duke with a "complete recovery" reported.

Please note that these are exceptions; they are not the rule. And please avoid the
"all or nothing" or "black or white" evaluation. All of this is in its beginning stages of
work by researchers.

I don't think we can deny the effectiveness of some natural things that help with bipolar illness that may be related to medications or poor diets. At the same time, not everyone is going to react the same way, nor do people digest things the same way. That's the major reason that I always say "it works for some of us" And "give it a couple of days' use before you dismiss it as unhelpful."

Most reliable research that I've read seems to indicate that the gluten thing in grains that
contain it and sugar sensitivity can be problems for society in the 21st century. And
I'm sure I've mentioned many times before that I read years ago that bipolar patients
have an extreme allergy to grains. Both sugar sensitivity and grains can cause strong
mood swings, and both grains and sugar are addictive. The best treatment of the subject
of sugar sensitivity has been written about by Dr. Kathleen Desmaissons, a noted Phd
in healing in addictive nutrition. Her books "Potatoes, Not Prozac", "Radiant Recovery",
and others are very instructive about diet changing for health.

So much for this subject. I understand your concerns; we just have to do what we know
to be best for our own lives in the long run.

[~Christina]

Genetic I want to thank you for your time and information.

I do not think in black and white and I don't know if you were actually referring to me or just stating as an umbrella to people in general. I am in fact open to any and all types of treatment(s)

Studies are just that ,,,,studies , of course we all know everyone acts differently to every known substance on this planet.

The reason I specifically asked you is that you seem to have seen many doctors and have been able to have much more extensive testing done than your normal average person could only hope to have done.

"So much for this subject. I understand your concerns; we just have to do what we know
to be best for our own lives in the long run." <~~~ This sounds dismissive ? I can only assume you are bothered by my questions, If so, I am sorry I meant no harm and asking you these questions seemed very logical to me since you are the one to bring a lot of these ideas to the boards. Should I not interact with you in the future ? You just let me know.

Thank you

[Anika.]

Gen, I use Carlson brand Norwegian fish oil, it has a purity guarentee, FDA tested, AOAC tested using international protocols ..regularly tested for levels of mercury, cadmium, lead, PCB's and 28 other contaminants. Did not see anything on their website for sustainabilty practices which us important but I do see that with Nordic.

"To address this, fish oil manufacturers use a process called molecular distillation to remove the toxins from the oil. When done correctly, molecular distillation is capable of reducing the toxins in fish oil to levels considered to be safe by the EPA and other agencies.Although almost any fish oil manufacturer will tell you their product is free of these toxins, independent lab analyses tell a different story. Just last month (March, 2010), a*lawsuit was filed*in California court against the manufacturers of ten popular fish oils because they contained undisclosed and (possibly) unsafe levels of contaminants. "

That's from an older article but I am lazy I am sure it still holds weight today.

I have not asked Carlson for a COA have you seen one for Nordic ? Any published testing by an independant certified lab or have you requested this info from Nordic ? If I can find that info I will switch. All the info for epa, dha, k , d etc that go with selecting a fish oil get overwhelming oh my goodness.

I stopped taking fish oil before my surgery and have not ressumed yet. But I want to be sure what I am getting, Carlson doesn't run cheap either... $44 for 500ml in Canada.

Christina, you are open to anything under the sun for treatment if it helps. You never scoffed at my success with gluten and were hugely supportive to me through all my alternative ideas. And one of my biggest supports for getting off my meds and at that time the forum was not as open to that as it is today.

No, Christina, I'm not concerned about your questions at all. You're an intelligent person, and I've never objected except on that one occasion when it came to talking about cognition in episodes, and I blamed that on myself, finally, for not giving all the details from "Manic-Depression" that clearly defined the meaning of cognition. So much for that.

Now, I ended my treatment of the subject on lemons, fish oils, and wheat, along with
sugar sensitivity because it was such a long treatise that I felt it ought to be an
ending to the subject I've harped on for so long.

About "all or nothing", "black or white" judgments. Dr. David Williams in his work "Grain Belly"
explains that, as more research appears on gluten and exorphins released into the blood
stream, the "uglier" the picture becomes, is the thought I had in mind when I said that
one should be careful about judgments on these subjects because much more research
is called for on all of it, in his view--and as I see it, too, having experienced some of
the things he describes in his work.

Several weeks ago I wrote a thread on "Why the 'Lemon Thing' Works for Some of Us"
or something similar. I felt that would end the discussion and I wouldn't need to
continue to talk about it, but I posted it on the Depression Forum and I doubt that
many thought much about how the use of a drink for release of acidic conditions of
fluids and tissues could be helpful. Nevertheless, I've had a few messages that it is working for some.

I hope you won't stop your questions and discussions; that's what this is all about, in
my view. It's all in an effort to help.
____________________________________________

Anika, I hope you're feeling strong now that you're home, and I hope you'll be careful!

Nordic has high standards, too, and it starts at about $40. for a month's supply.
The taste is delightful to me, and it really does its job on calming the brain. It
does boost my blood pressure though, and I wondered what was causing that until
I dropped it for a few days in an effort to learn which of the supplements I take was
doing that. The solution was to cut back to 3 times per week rather than daily use.

I haven't looked recently at the certification in purity regarding Nordic North Sea products, but I feel it's comparable to the one you're using. Maybe I should check into it a little further. I think, generally speaking, we usually get the quality we pay for, don't you? Not
always, certainly, but often it seems that way to me. For example, I've always found
prenatal multiple vitamins a good source for vitamin supplements, though they're
expensive, they are good--at least the ones I've tried are. At my age I feel a little
awkward about picking up a bottle and checking the ingredients, but so far no snickers
at the pay out counter when I put them among my items for purchase.

Allergies giving me a fit with grass cutting going on all around. Hope you all are not
sensitive to anything!

[~Christina]

Thanks for clearing a few things up for me Genetic. It's been very helpful

[mimi2112]

A Stanford trained Psychiatrist that I saw in Ca. actually prescribed Nordic Naturals specifically. This was years ago before fish oil was popular and other brands weren't regulated. I now go with Swanson's because they have a high standard and they are more affordable. Also note that the recommended amount for MI is much higher than what is on the labels for standard well being. My MD recommended up to 9 gm's., that's a lot, and people need to work their way up to that. Another poster here pointed out it does thin the blood and it's important that all your healthcare providers know you take it.

_________________________________________________________________________

Genetic I so appreciate your knowledge._ Do you know what amounts niacin (vit.b3) are recommended for MI? I have resources that only recommend niacin, but not the amount specifically. thanks!

Christina: sorry I hijacked your thread with another q. for Genetic.

Hi, Mimi,

I can't give you a specific amount of the vitamin you should be taking.

I can tell you what I take and you may certainly make your own decisions
about what you think you need for titrating to the level you feel is sufficient
for you. I would add that I think you wouldn't want to take more than
200 mg on any one day because too much of one vitamin B can throw
off the balance of all the other vitamins in the B series.

Generally, I take Nordic Omega 3's about 1000-1500 mg for three of the seven days in a week. During that time I may take 2 vitamin tablets in the afternoon (not at night because vitamin B series can interrupt sleep schedules.) I use a timed-release form of it to keep it in the system longer. (B vitamins are water soluble and leave the system within hours of taking.)

You'll be able to gauge what is adequate by your feeling tone.

I hope you find as much success as I did with Nordic products. (I have no stock or interest in that company whatsoever; I just prefer their high certification standards and like the taste of the lemon flavor--I just added that for the benefit of anyone who might think
I benefit from referring to Nordic Omega 3's.

P.S. Mimi.

I took another look at vitamins B tonight and found that not only B3, but also
B6 is helpful for brain health. Both are essential for metabolizing fatty acids,