Her defense is to destroy

Wow these are all great! Thanks for all of that.

Lennys post is so profound I will have to read it over and think about it for a long time.

Pachy; yes emergency mode is quite apt. Anything that comes up she feels she has to do immediately. Like a dirty clothing has to go in the wash. I had never thought of it as emergency mode.

spiritual: Yes you do understand it correctly, and "yes" I think that could work for me.

THank you all of you again. This is very very useful to me.

THis thing about conflict was something my therapist suggested (that conflicts bother her immensely) and this theme keeps repeating the more I think about. I was wondering if:

Potential Conflict.............TRIGGERS-----> FEELING OF ABANDONMENT.

She used to describe the conflicts with her brother and she remembers her mother standing on top of him to control him as a last resort. And she is really not close to the mother. I wonder if there is a connection here. Hell, there is certainly a connection just how much or what the nature of it.

Okay food for thought, huh? Thx.

My initial response was to say "Hypersensitivity", but this appears to go way beyond that. I think Paranoid Personality might be close. A paranoid individual inevitably projects blame onto others, as well as projecting negative aspects of his/her own personality onto others. Confronting such an individual with any slight implication of deficit, however well meant, will only cause a tirade of projected blame, anger, and what have you. At some point, this person will take her overblown defense too far with someone and will be assisted into a hospital, by those well judicially able to do the assisting. I am not saying that this will help a lot, since both personality disorders and paranoia are particularly resistant to treatment, particularly insight-oriented therapy. If medication therapy should reduce the paranoia, insight may still be absent for past behaviors, but present behaviors might improve. This is just an opinion and not necessarily an educated one. It is a tribute to your ability to be a good friend that you express concern about this. But, your best bet might be to lay low. Just a guess ~ billieJ

Over reaction is not just with those who have a PD .

people with adhd have very high trigger responses. I will give a twenty - four to that!

so for both the originator of the thread which was " why do they destroy"

and for easy goer , before assuming these women or others "HAVE" BPD

do alot of reading ..
here are some links for researching and learning.

and realize many stories are by those who just believ any hick up is a personality dissorder.



http://forum.outofthefogsite.com/topic/561623/1/ this will link you to a site about personality disorders and a site by someone who has recovered.

here is another site for friends and family For personality disorders the commited to working on it section
http://www.bpdfamily.com/message_boa....php?board=6.0

and here is one for ADHD and learning disabilites along with co morbidities. people with ADHD can appeare to destroy thier work and have difficulty with relationships because of their ADHD.
you acn get into specifics there and maybe get some additional advice.

iI haven't read this thread yet but I noticed Zoomy dude had something to say that equates with dramtic word "destroy : alluded to

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72215

And it is important for eack person to calrify which disorder they have .
and take charge of thier recovery .

Group lynchings or bannings missdiagnosised interventions etc do more damage than good.

IMHO.

a word about destroy .. there are many people who detroy thier lives.. as simple as lighing up a cigarette or a shoping bender.

then there are those whos have their life destroyed by bullies sex perverts and a number of people who set up boards to figure out How to keep away from those who have had such atrocites befall them .


it is those people who are forged in the fire and if they make it are diamond hard.

Patricia

[quote=easy goer;1148304


".....instead of complaining constantly about her wearing shoes in the house couldnt you just buy her a present of a pair of "house shoes..."

I DID NOT complain about it constantly. There was nothing that I said to indicate that this was some sort of ongoing battle. I mentioned it to her a couple of times on different days because it was a pain in the *** to try to keep the kitchen floor clean w/ mud being tracked up on it. As soon as I mentioned it she brought up this idea of having a foot problem. She has never been to any doctor for this. She used to run in triathalons and 20k runs..

As soon as the words leave my lips she immediately starts to attack.

Here's another:

"...not many do well in the face of pointed critisisum"

Well yeah that is true. But for myself and I think the other poster, we are not doing pointed criticism. I realize it is hard to get the full picture without being in on the conversation but cant you just trust us for once and accept our side of things?

[/quote]

Id hate for you to walk into my apartment right now .. your jaw woud drop and you would never again complin about your SO tracking dirt on the floor.
because my floor is lucky to track in a floor at this point.

do you get where Im coming from .... now.... ?

and believe me .. I have critisiums by the boat load

how to not have them is a ful time job. for me .

and dealing with responses in kind..

How important is the tracking in of dirt.
and can you maybe live with it there for a day or two ..


Patricia

Patricia: My wife has spent the better part of this past April through July in mental institutions and/or half way houses. There is no doubt that she has a personality disorder. It's not just a minor hiccup.

"Id hate for you to walk into my apartment right now .. your jaw woud drop and you would never again complin about your SO tracking dirt on the floor.
because my floor is lucky to track in a floor at this point."

My floor is pretty dirty right now too. I am not a neat freak. In fact I like to live very relaxed and dirt and stuff like that does not bother me. I am taking care of 88 yr old father and my daughter on every other week. As well as the cat...

So spending lots of time cleaning up stuff has no interest for me.

Naturally my wife accused me of being lazy (this was months before all the hospitalization started, when I was just being normally laid back), I guess because I would come home from work and relax and not get worked up about stuff. But she is in emergency mode all the time. If a shirt gets dirty right away she has to run to the washing machine.

I dont get the "emergency mode" thing, but I can see it now at the time I didnt realize it was like an emergency. She has to rush to do everything. Is this common for BPDs?

The thing with the floor was. Our therapist, really my therapist but wife was coming too, suggested that maybe I should have some assigned chores around the house as the housework seemed to be some sort of pt of contention (freaked her out more like it). I said sure; let me know what you want to do.

Now normally I would not undertake to clean floors every other day or clean the bathrooms twice a week. That is not me. But I took this on hoping it might help the marriage but of course it didnt. There was simply more issues that got her worked up over.

Nor is the floor thing a very important elemnt it was merely AN EXAMPLE of what happens when I try to ask for some cooperation from my wife in trying to do all this. I couldnt care less if house is messy or not. I prefer to live in relaxed fashion but if it would help I was wiling to try it.

"...do you get where Im coming from .... now.... ?"

Not really. but you can try again and I will read it.

[EDIT] Hey I checked out two of those site, they look really fantastic. Thanks for your help with that I am sure it will help me a lot.

there are fifty different ways a person can cut vegtables................

I think walking up behind her saying I LOVE the way you cut veggies. It turns me on to watch you in your unique way of stir fry ...smooch smoochie....

will get you more than soup...

Maybe ask her why you no longer are geting along and what you can do to make things beter between her and you .

she may be able to respond she may not gve her some time too respond.


If you re read the original post you may see there is a group of people involved in the paragraph or two .

Patricia

I was stating my experience based on reading on forums for a few years.
thanks for clarifying your wife is having moment of deep dispare .



I was not sure who had the hyperfocus on needing things to be a certain way. such as real clean or not.

I tend to read fast I have some dyslexia and I can swap senarios easily .


Im not sure . I have seen this kind of behavior comon in German shepards...

just kidding...

I really can;t say . why don;t you ask her why she feels the need to run around and get things done suddenly?

I used to work for a woman who freeked at any spot on her imaculate clothing. I think she had some shame about having everything in its palce and spotless.

I had to fluff her panseys. I think its a form of OCD obsessive complusive .
It wore me out nothing was ever good enough. I worked for her four 18 years ..

I disn;t label her with a personlity disorder. I just try to deal with what is. I did the best I could to navigate or work with her . But she could not bend or change so I had to leave .



people with ADHD have a difficult time with structure and being able to focus and time management and forgetfulness and feeling over whelmed.hyperfocusing on a task to perfection . starting and stoping project s

I don;t want to get into gender roles on cooking and cleaning .'thats why I live alone.

I would check out the ADHD forum . therpaist rarely look for ADHD in adults . Maybe have your wife look into it as well . ADHD is being found common with women who have BPD. they are very close i some of the criteria I think.

Patricia

Hello Patricia. Thank you for your insight. Coming from someone who suffers from this, your insight is very valuable to me and it probably does not come easy for you. So I must thank you for the good you are doing me and hopefully many others.

Yeah ADHD may be part of it. For sure she can get distracted in a conversation rather easily...My guess is that whenever feelings come up, the conversations starts to come apart. She gets noticeably defensive and tries to change the subject. Whether it be my feelings, her feelings, her daughter. My guess is that feelings are sort of what is distracting her, perhaps different from what others have experienced in ADHD..

I remember from the movie Ordinary People. The doctor (Judd Hirsch) tells the kid "Feelings are real. And feelings can be scary."

I find this a very useful concept, although I do not tell my wife directly as it might get her uncomfortable. Although interestingly enough, another poster was saying that feelings are "not real." I forget on which board this was..

I would say to that. "Feelings are not facts..." However "Feelings are real." What do you think?

As background, Patricia, and in response to some of thoughts.. It is difficult to discuss much with her at this pt. But we go to marriage counseling once a week and we do talk on the phone almost every night. Last night we talked for over an hour and it was good, I can tell that she senses when she might overreact and she stops herself; so we are talking some but it's hard to push too much w/o a therapist there.

The notion of living in panic mode and failing to budget time. These seem to be a constant with her. I am not sure, are they typical for those who suffer from BPD?

THanks. I hope you are doing well.

"Feelings are not facts... However, Feelings are real."

I agree. How a person feels is how they feel, and nobody else can legitimately challenge another person's feelings. But feeling something does not make it a fact.

I usually wouldn't diagnose a person with BPD with ADHD, although they may have many of the symptoms, and it can be useful to understand ADHD. The dissociation and depression characteristic of BPD also make it hard to concentrate or to stay with an idea or a task all the way through. Living in panic mode and failing to budget time go right along with it too. Everything feels so intense and urgent with BPD, because it's like there is only black/white, on/off, good/bad, urgent/doesn't matter, etc. What is right now is all that there is, even though we get stuck in the past or worry about the future, but might not know it. We get pulled this way and that, and tossed around by the currents. And we don't feel real enough to matter, and go to extremes to try to be seen when we feel invisible. Sometimes we can't even see that there is any middle ground. It's a very hard and painful way to live.

Can I ask you this: Are feelings very difficult to discuss with others?

My experience is that anytime I bring up feelings with me wife. Whether it is her feelings or my feelings or our daughter's my wife gets extremely uncomfortable, changes the subject, makes a smart remark etc. I wonder if this is at the core of some of this.

Do you feel similarly?

ALso, I may have misspoke above. I dont know if you suffer from BPD or not, so I think I assumed that. I dont want to label you or anything. Obviously you have a lot of insight so I think I assume that.

Again thanks Rapunz.

Are you asking me? It's sometimes hard to tell which post a reply goes with.

Yes, feelings are very hard to discuss. I'm a therapist (newly graduated), and I understand how important it is to talk about feelings. I encourage other people to acknowledge their own feelings and accept them, as well as to validate and accept the feelings of people around them. Usually, I can deal with other people's feelings without too much problem. The closer someone is to me and the more wrapped up their life is to mine, the harder it is. With family members I get defensive because, whether they mean to or not, I tend to feel blamed for their feelings. The other problem is that my family of origin continually invalidated my feelings and blamed me for being depressed, angry, unhappy, etc. So, talking about feelings is very hard and very uncomfortable and can quicly lead to inability to cope. I'd like to say that I'm better at it than I used to be, but sometimes maybe I'm not so much.

And, yes, I would say that I do suffer from BPD. Self-diagnosed, as I haven't gone to a therapist who has wanted to label me that way, but they can't really deny it either. I don't mind the label. I identify with this, as well as how the disorder develops. There isn't anything else that is a better fit for me.

Dear Ledz ~ You certainly write very well. Re the above responders, Ooh, amandalouise is particularly good! [in my humble opinion] As to what is to be said of such a personality, how about Paranoid Personality Disorder? Sounds a little like projection of blame to me. Paranoids project! Just A Thought ~ billieJ

Yes Rapunz, I was asking you. The modern internet, threaded forum is a challenge to humans isnt it? I mean in the old days we spoke face to face and we knew who we were asking. Nowadays on the internet it is confusing, huh?

You mentioned:

"The other problem is that my family of origin continually invalidated my feelings and blamed me for being depressed, angry, unhappy, etc. So, talking about feelings is very hard and very uncomfortable and can quicly lead to inability to cope...'

I have no doubt in my mind that this is exactly what happened to my wife. The family is very stiff upper lipped, conservative. Well at least the parents. Some children became very liberal, others, I dunno. My wife is certainly a rules follower..

A couple of things about her:

One thing she recall is her father said "Family is overrated. It's not so important. " He was born out of wedlock so this may be some part of it. Im not sure why this stuck in her mind, whether it is something that caused her to feel less about things, or somethign but it did stick in her mind.

ANother: When she was a bit younger she had a very close relationship to a black man (she/I are white). This guy is very nice, very polite. great guy. I guess this guy was the love of her life or maybe close to. SHe recalls her parents sittign down and talking to her about this and how it wouldnt work and so she broke up with him.

I recalled the story a few weeks ago in marriage therapy. And my wife didnt deny the story but said that it had nothing to do with her parents that he lived too far away and it was too hard to see him....

Maybe that is true. Or maybe she thought he lived too far away to avoid dealing with the parents. Or maybe my original thought is what happened...?

I am begining to detect a common patterns among many BPD and that is that feelings are uncomfortable. Today in therapy I mentioned the movie Ordinary People and the doctor says:

"Feelings are real and feelings can hurt."

I keep coming back to this. See? SOme people say feelings arent real. My friend whos' been in therapy 20 years says "Feelings arent facts."

a Better concept?

Ok, what you have there is a dialectic. This is actually a classic hang-up for people with BPD.

On one side, we have "feelings are real and feelings can hurt."

The other side of the dialectic is "feelings aren't facts."

They don't seem like they can go together, so the challenge is to find the balance where these two statements can fit and be true.

When you were a child, were you ever afraid of the dark? If so, it's scary, isn't it? I've found myself panicking because I was in the dark and it didn't feel safe, even as an adult. Reality is that the feeling is real, and we can actually be afraid, even if the fact is that there is no real danger. If your child is afraid of the dark, wouldn't you acknowledge that the child is scared and needs to be comforted? Part of that might include turning on the light to show him or her that there is no real danger. The feeling is real, but the danger isn't.

A less emotionally-sensitive parent might fail to acknowledge the child's feeling and command the child to go to sleep because there's nothing there. That child would be at risk for developing BPD symptoms, such as inability to manage feelings or self-soothe, because the skills are not being taught. Those are the effects of emotional invalidation.

In your wife's example, her feelings were probably invalidated many times. Her feeling of love and need for family and closeness and approval was real. So was her love for the man her parents didn't approve of. But she received countless messages that her feelings were wrong; that family wasn't important; that she couldn't love him because he was the wrong color.

When that happens over and over, we don't even know what we feel anymore, because we learned that we were always wrong. It's confusing. Feelings are confusing when we weren't allowed to have the ones we thought we had. But what one person feels, real as it is for them, may not represent fact or even another person's feeling. What we feel is still what we feel, and that much is reality.

Facts may be correct or incorrect. Feelings are not right or wrong. Feelings just are. Isn't it a good thing that feelings aren't facts?

What techniques can be used to get BPDs to feel "more"?

That is such a dumb phrase, I know. Just dont know how to phrase it. There is this dichotomy between "I am not a feeling person" and "I am a very sensitive person" She has stated both on occasion and I believe her. I tend to think she does have feelings and they are very strong and that is why they are oftentimes being suppressed.

Hi easy goer...

I don't know if that is what you want...a technigue for folks who suffer with BPD to feel more...I believe they actually already feel more. What you might want to research is how to suggest that they express them rather than suppress or disassociate from them.

Also please keep in mind that we here at PC are so very lucky to have Rapunzel as a member. Her insight into BPD behavior is priceless as is her theraputic perspective. But please be carefull in "asking the borderline" kind of exchange. Each person is different as is the disorder as it manefests within the individual. Rapunzel can offer you her "feelings" and experience but to overlay that upon your wifes particular issues and history would be unfair to her and you...

IMHO.

Lenny

Another dialectic. "not a feeling person" / "a very sensitive person."

Therapy can be very effective in helping people with BPD to be more able to manage and express their feelings. Family members aren't the best to try to change or "therapize" their own spouses, children, parents, etc. If she is willing to go to therapy, she will do this kind of work. Your role is to do your own work, and to accept that she is who she is.

DBT is one of the most effective therapies for BPD, and can also help family members to have better relationships with loved ones with BPD. A lot of the skills taught in DBT are explained online. I'll give you a link to the website of someone who has gone to the trouble already to post this information, as she has done an excellent job, and it would take me months to reproduce it here.

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/emot..._handouts.html

This link goes to information on emotion regulation skills, but if you follow the site navigation tools, you will find a lot more. I really suggest practicing it yourself before suggesting it to your wife. All of us would do better to start with ourselves.

thanks for that link this kind of information is difficult to find using google and such.

as far as trying to therapize her: Okay I get your pt. But there is another part to this.

Obviously one can do more damage to a BPD person, by their actions etc. doesnt it follow that one can also do less damage and/or help such a person? I just want to help her in the best way possible. It seems that there are things that work and there are things that dont work.

ANd it seems that there are times when she responds positively and there are times when she retreats. At this pt in time she is in a better state. That paper by Kernburg that I linked to somewhere, suggests three possible states when the bp is experiencing difficulty: Psychopathic, psychotic and a depressed state.

She has gone through the first two and now is occasionally depressed. Which is the least threatening stage to be in. So I think she is at least in a decent place emotionally.

The most important things that family members of people with BPD can do are to learn good self-care skills, and to listen and validate.

I went to a symposium today, and while it was about parenting and helping children and youth, the principles apply to anyone, including people with BPD. Some of the points that really stand out:

• It has nothing to do with what you do or say. It has everything to do with what you feel when you are doing or saying.
• All negative behavior comes from a place of fear.
• The only thing stopping you from being in an unconditional, loving relationship is fear.
• Stress interferes with ability to attach or be in relationships; suppresses short-term memory; causes people to regress to their developmental level of comfort; and long-term stress damages brain tissue, particularly the part of the brain responsible for logic, reasoning, and learning.
• The damage to brain tissue from stress can heal and be repaired with therapy (expressing and understanding what happened, acceptance, ...)
• Anything new or novel is a threat until we deem it otherwise.
• The moment you react to anyone, it's about you.
• The moment you become reactive, you reinforce victimhood.
• Become responsible for your own emotions.
• Trauma memory is buried at the state level, which is the level that directs all other responses (cognitive, emotional, and motor).
• All negative behavior occurs from an unconscious state.
• We first react from our unconscious at the body level, before it is processed in our mind.
• Fear reactions influence our ability to be responsive ... Fear sees problems and love sees solutions.
• The person with with the calmer amygdala (part of the brain that regulates basic fight/flight/freeze reactions) has the ability to calm and soothe the unregulated person.

People with BPD are like children with attachment disorders. BPD is an adult attachment disorder.

Oh boy.. I just spnet a couple of hours wrtting and editing out ramblings kept geting logged out when I hit submit and had to log back in and kept adding more stuff .
got it to its best

and I got logged out AGAIN and went to highlight your response to delete it and then copy paste the entire piece
and hit control c

which i coppied your respose instaed of ..deleting it

oh criminey..

lets see if I can do a short version.

"I" don't think its a good idea to assume everyone who posts in the BPD section has BPD. not everyone does . But don't worry about it your not alone in doing this.

My diagnosis is ADHD and pstd .

which can look like BPD .

I have had BPD and NPD ruled out back in 2006. I requeted it im y three mont evaluation at the university. I need more evaluation for ADHD by someone who is expereinced with diagnosisng ADHD in adults . I also need testing done for dyslexia .

BPD can be ADHD misdiagnoised The criteria overlap. In the Book Driven to distraction the authour states this in his own words .

BPD is said to be diagnosied 75% females , ADHD has been diagnosied primarily in males and not looked at in females .

ADHD is not looked for in adults because its usually caught in childhood ,Some do not belive it extends into adult hood.

its not always caught in childhood because there are two types . The non hyperactive goes un noticed.

BPD does not show up untill puberty.

In puberty ADHD in females gets worse. the key is to go back into ones childhood and look for the symptoms of ADHD . To do this you have to know what to look for.

Most therapists who treat adults are not well versed in diagnosisning adhd in adults. and do not look for it . They do look for personality disorders .

This has been changing since 2000.

here is one link about ADHD and BPD

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r7q47qw007h87431/there

They can also coexist .

abandonment and rejection social alienation are common for those who have adhd as children . suicde attempts are also comon with ADHD males becaause of impuslsive ness and anger issues . Could be so in females as well.

changing the subject can be a way of setting a boundrie.

changing the subject can also be a result of the mind shifting to something else rapidly or drifting.which is ADHD.

You can try this.

Just follow where her change in the conversation goes
Let it ride out. Then say I noticed you may have gotten distracted because I didn't get a response to a question I asked .
And re ask it and if she responds she may have not heard you .

If she doesn;t she may not want to talk about it.

it would also help if he did some reading about ADHD On her own . Its a relief to see its a brain function rather than a chacter problem .

I have not seen this movie .
I think feelings can be scaary if you have been raised in a viloent home or have been punished for having emotions or made fun of .
And if you have supressed emtions in order to survive they can be scarey when you finally let them come out.

children with ADHD are very sensitive and are very emotinal and can be gumpy acting. spacey and treated with frutration and anger by parents. some are punished because they are accused of being spacey on purpose.

well I guess if you are in the place of needing to instruct rather than share from your own experience yes it may make her feel like she is being talked down to .

This is what Im sensing from what you worte , I could beall wrong though. I find men tend to explain things with logic and concepts because they can't emote.

we women long for that emoting from in men as passion. Well ..I do,,
that comes with leting go .

'I have never liked the respose of feelings are not facts. It happens to be a pet peve of mine . its so over used .

feelings are real in response to real situations. some of which many of us have not expereinced .

they can be applied to situations that are "Like " the original expereince and then are not as factual .

I really can't say if its BPD.I don;t know .

Thats wonderful you are talking on the phone each night.How thought ful of you and loving. You must love her alot to do that.

Panic can be a result of not managing time not able to find things disorganization and day dreaming and over whelm . Panic to you may be hyper to someone with ADHD. or angziety .

I have a post over on the ADHD forum about symptoms for females you may find helpful.

Thanks for asking if Im doing well,
Im getting my footing back somehwat. It sounds like you are feeling a bit better

Take care .

Patricia

Hello Easy G,

I did not test the link out last night . I just did and it does not work so heres another try.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r7q47qw007h87431/

Its an abstract of a study and it looks like theres some discussion about BPD and ADHD being very close to the same .

They are concidered to be two separate disorders

.Bi polar adhd and BPD have overlap .

In Driven to Distraction on page 184 and 185 the authors gives an example of a woman who was misdiagnosised with BPD. The book was written in 1996 I belive .

Medication is what made the dramtic change in her functioning.


What exactly makes them distinct is worth looking at.


There are some papers / studies written about the use of DBT in treating ADHD .

Patricia

Well okay, but what exactly does that mean? "Asking the borderline kind.."

***

I hope I apologized to Patricia for making assumptions, I know I did somewhere hereabouts. Perhaps in a different thread??

***

Sort of a so so day today. My wife actually took the iniative and called me to see if I wanted to go running after my therapist appt. I had previously suggested it so not exactly out of the blue but okay...

My therapist really creeped me out today. She said she spoke to our marriage counselor (they are both part of the same program) and felt there was a lot that was not being said between the two of us...

Well maybe so. But my wife just hasnt been into sharing feelings. In fact the last 6 months or so before she separated she just hasnt been able to sit down and talk to me. What is the big mystery here??? It's also strange as my T. knows that I am not afraid to reveal my emotions, and that I'm quite open. Even another person from the county she talked to said same thing. I am just like that...

So she goes into how my mother died of ALS (this is 30 years ago almost) and how that affected me...Sure it did. That was 30 years ago, I got like 4 or 5 major issues right now in my life, this is not like something I dwell on, ya know. I mean I thought about a lot, back then and a few years ago after I quite drugs and went to AA. (sober 4 1/2 years now).

It was like she was driving the whole conversation. It was a very odd therapy session for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auroralso
But please be carefull in "asking the borderline" kind of exchange.



Hi Easy ,

This is not my quote .

You sound a bit lost .

Try reading through the thread again.

That may help.


I have to admidt , I cracked a smile.

Patricia

That quote was from Lenny. Sorry I first tried to cut his quote by hand and then copy it into my message, but then I hit the quote button and wound up with the huge quote from Patricia. Then I had to edit it and forgot who the author of that sentence was..Sorry.

That was a good summary from the symposium I will have to cut that out and carry it with me. That was from Rapunzel.