[Atalanta]

I could use some insight.

Me: bi-polar II (Did ask 2 therapists about possible BDP and traits, both said no) Stable with meds. No rages except I do get angry in emails and have said hurtful things in email. We get along fine in person. I've been honest and faithful. I have low self-esteem.

Him: ADHD, some OCD and Porn Addiction (and he's a therapist) There have been lies and minimizations regarding his addiction buthe's got 43 days soberierty from porn and goes to meetings.

Nobody's ignoring their issues. We are both working on ourselves. But I resent his assessment and the fact he's distorted things and has ignored facts.

We are going into our third couples counseling. I've copied and pasted correspondence.

I know it's mind reading. But his actions and his words do not match up. He says only "BPD tendencies" but he's reading books for spouses, watching seminars, frequenting support groups, and using lingo. I feel like I can't have an opinion without him accusing me of "black and white thinking". I know I have issues. It's just that BPD isn't one of them.

What do you think? <sigh>

• Dear Mr. Ebaugh,
  
  I hope it's appropriate to send this email. I'm suggesting it and R agreed that it would be okay to send. We are at a crossroads and are at a disagreement as to whether I have Borderline Personality Disorder (or at least features associated with it that he feels is appropriately described by this disorder).
  
  It seems that he's using BPD terms to define our communications and my feelings. I find it invalidating and impossible to defend myself against. My self esteem is at an all time low. He feels that I am trying to manipulate how he should think. I feel it's a personal boundary that I won't be with someone who believes this about me (My therapist said she does not believe I have BPD or it's traits) His therapist told him "She at least has BPD tendencies". He said she's brought up BPD several times. Which I find troubling. She has never met with me.
  
  The following is our email exchange from today which is a good example of our communication problems and where each of us stand on this issue. We thought it would help to have for our session on Wednesday. Instead of sending bits and pieces (which wouldn't be fair) I'm sending the entire correspondence which I don't expect to be read in it's entirety. I think a glance would give a pretty good idea of what is going on. We'd appreciate any insight. I sent Rick a copy of this to be sure we agree on what's been written. So we do agree that this is a fair exchange.
  
  My history does not include any of the interpersonal relationship issues seen with BPD individuals. Before sending this to you, I sent a copy to my good Friend Joyce whose has been fair and nonjudgemental. Her reponse is included as an attachment.

• ME
  
  • If you want to go Wendsday, I'll go.
    
    This is how I feel:
    
    I won't be in a relationship with someone who believes I have a personality disorder.
    
    On Friday when you came over and I brought it up, I *expected* (Rightfully so) that you, as my partner, would say "No, I don't think you have BPD". When I saw in your face and heard in your words that you believed I had it. That's when I got upset and began to cry. I was so upset. Mostly because you didn't know me at all. That you would believe that. That a line was crossed.
    
    Then, you insisted, the next day that I was drawing erroneous conclusions and putting words in your mouth. Yes, I drew conclusions. Quite appropriately. Your words do not match your actions. You won't even admit you think it's true. But you already did.
    
    Your actions, which include:
    
    Asking me questions in the past that are direct criteria for BPD
    Looking up BPD partner support groups
    Looking into BPD Books
    Watching BPD video's.
    
    Add in the fact that it was done for months:
    
    Equates to believing I have BPD. It's not fair to suggest that I was "drawing conclusions" or "putting words in your mouth" when the writing is on the wall. To try and turn it around as me drawing conclusions is crazy making. I am deeply hurt.
  • 
    ME
    • I'd like you to own up to the fact that you have a personal belief that I have BPD.
      
      You are free to believe what you want. However, it's not fair to have a belief and deny it.
• 
  23 hours ago
  HIM
  • I'm sorry you're deeply hurt. I didn't mean to do that. I love you very much. My therapist suggested it to me several times, so I looked into it.
    
    It's true you have suffered much from me. I have suffered too. And it is like walking on eggshells sometimes. When I come over I never know what mood you will be in. I don't know if you're going to love me or hate me, or where in between. When you are loving toward me it's a wonderful inspiring feeling and I love being with you. When you are questioning me or attacking me I feel hurt, on edge, defensive, angry. You have every right to be angry at me for some of the things I've done. You have every right to doubt me because of some of the things I've done. But the level and intensity of your doubt and anger and ambivalence toward me is very stressful at times.
    
    I think many of my "half-truths" are a defense because I'm always defending myself. And when i do something that really offends you, you cut me off from emails and other forms of contact. This isn't just once in a while. It happens a lot.
    
    I know I've done hurtful things to you - not on purpose, But I've done them nonetheless. And you have done the same to me. Many times.
    
    You've punished me because I had or have thoughts or beliefs that you find threatening.
    
    When I'm with you I don't think she's Bipolar or she's Borderline or anything like that. The person in front of me is K.
    
    Personally I don't know how to have a conversation with you o this. Anything I say - I lose.
    
    To tell you the truth, I think it would be wonderful if we never brought up this subject again. I would never call you anything or label you, and you would never ask me if I thought you had this or that .
• ME
  • R, you just described someone with BPD. Is this true? "When I come over I never know what mood you will be in." Really? Are my moods widly irratic towards you? I see confirmation bias all over this. If you choose to decribe me in a BDP fashion. Okay.
    
    You said your doctor mentioned it once. Now it is "several times"?
    
    You didn't answer my question. Please, I need an answer. You have a belief. Is it your personal belief and opinion that I most likely have BPD?
• 
  
  23 hours ago
  ME
  • All I ask is a yes or no. It is a yes or no answer.
• 
  
  23 hours ago
  HIM
  • I was still writing when you posted that question. I think it's a strong possibility.
• 
  
  23 hours ago
  ME
  • Thank you.
• 
  
  23 hours ago
  ME
  • With that. I have to let you go. I am not a Borderline. I do not have strained relationships with people close to me. I get along with my friends and family with no arguments. I am 40 years old and have had only one person suggest that I have BPD. You. This is truth. If you describe me using BPD terminology, of course people are going to believe I have it.
    
    I'll go on Wednesday. But it won't be to try and work things out. So it's up to you if you'd still like to go.
• 
  
  23 hours ago
  HIM
  • Then what will it be for?
  • It makes me very angry that you're going to punish me because of this. If I'm wrong the evidence will bear it out anyway. But you're telling me I have no right to even suspect it, so therefore I am not entitled to be in a relationship with you.
  • I know I'm not perfect, but have i not been good to you overall?
• 
  
  21 hours ago
  HIM
  • Very unfair.
• 
  
  21 hours ago
  ME
  • This is so twisted.
    
    I left work today because I'm so sick over this. I can see you even turning that into BPD evidence.
    
    ..."But you're telling me I have no right to even suspect it, so therefore I am not entitled to be in a relationship with you..."
    
    Yes. It is reasonable that I would have a personal boundary to not be ina relationship with someone who believes I have a serious personality disorder. I do not think you'd be able to weigh evidence because you've ignored facts as it is. You've used confirmation bias to assert your opinion.
    
    Joyce, my friend who I spent the day with yesterday. Who I met through my ex whom I was in a relationship for 9 months with... Her expression was priceless when I told her that you have suggested that I have Borderline Personality Disorder. She validated me pointing out that although I have stayed in this relationship, I have demonstrated good decision making by ending the engagement, limited time you had with my children, and ceasing having sexual relations. Have you been good to me? In words and actions, yes. But your dishonest, lack of loyalty and commitment are loudest. My words may cut due to being hurt on very deep levels due to these missing components. But I have loyal, committed, and honest. When I said you were very sick man. I was quoting my therapist.
    
    I'm allowed to have beliefs too. I believe you think that I've been leaving you in small steps and so you've saddled me this a personality disorder to make it easier on yourself.
    
    Yet, I have low self-esteem and such an accusation on my very self has really effected me. I have made great strides in therapy before this relationship. You deny the facts that say I do not have this disorder. I have been in therapy and my mental health issues are being addressed. I've not been in denial about them. I'm not in denial over this because you or your therapist (Who has never met me) say I am which you have definitely said in so many words.
• 
  
  21 hours agoME
  • Personally, It's been suggested that I do go to this last counseling session with you to address this and I agree.
  • You say it takes two to tango. I agree. But I have to draw the line on this one. I have some self-respect. I haven't tried to diagnose you with anything you don't have but I could. Again, I only brought up one disorder which I asked you to ask your therapist about which you did and I didn't bring it up again because I respect your therapist who is treating you. I do not have much respect for a therapist who repeatedly suggests your SO whom she's never met or heard from as having a personality disorder tho. She's discounting my own therapist which is quite unprofessional.
• 
  
  21 hours ago
  ME
  • Here I am babbling because I wish you didn't believe this. But, I won't and can't change it. It's very sad.
  • You say you won't label me and that I'm just Kim. Howver, you admit "I think it's a strong possibility." Regarding a "personality" disorder. You make no sense. This is part of the crazy making that is tearing me up. I'm crying and mourning right now, mourning the end of lying to myself thinking it could ever work. Square peg and round hole. Not BPD.

[Girl_Interrupted]

Clearly the issue here isn't whether you have BPD or not, it's that you have an issue with your ex and he has an issue with you.

That is the only issue here.

[Atalanta]

Yeah, that's what I was told. It's hard to see through the tangle. Blech. I should have clarified that he's not an really an ex. We're just no longer engaged. I shoulda just said BF! We are boyfriend/girlfriend for now. Been together under 1 year going on 40. :P

That is so weird that I worded it the way I did.

[Atalanta]

Thank you!

[unaluna]

why are you two together to begin with? what do you have in common? I'm not seeing anything like common problem solving attitudes or world views.

[Atalanta]

Thank you both for reading and replying. We both wanted to make it work. It had a promising beginning as the story goes. We both want it to work but over the last few months, the message I've been getting looks like it's just not meant to be. I'm tired. That's for sure.

[cboxpalace]

Originally Posted by Atalanta

His therapist told him "She at least has BPD tendencies". He said she's brought up BPD several times. Which I find troubling. She has never met with me.

his therapist is out-of-line, and there is no way she can reasonably make that assessment of you without ever having met you. My advice, ignore his therapist and rely on yours.

• My history does not include any of the interpersonal relationship issues seen with BPD individuals.

• This is really what bpd is all about ineffective coping skills involving interpersonal relationships, whether it be romantic or just friendship.

• • 
    
    

    When you are questioning me or attacking me I feel hurt, on edge, defensive, angry. You have every right to be angry at me for some of the things I've done. You have every right to doubt me because of some of the things I've done. But the level and intensity of your doubt and anger and ambivalence toward me is very stressful at times.
    
    I think many of my "half-truths" are a defense because I'm always defending myself. And when i do something that really offends you, you cut me off from emails and other forms of contact. This isn't just once in a while. It happens a lot.
    
    I know I've done hurtful things to you - not on purpose, But I've done them nonetheless. And you have done the same to me. Many times.
    

    obviously, he has lied to you and to some extent it seems like he's trying to justify it. I think people have a right to get angry and the level of anger for everyone is different.
• Having said all that my advice is either forgive him and drop it or move on.
  
  

  To tell you the truth, I think it would be wonderful if we never brought up this subject again.

He's right here.

• HIM

  • Then what will it be for?
  • It makes me very angry that you're going to punish me because of this. If I'm wrong the evidence will bear it out anyway. But you're telling me I have no right to even suspect it, so therefore I am not entitled to be in a relationship with you.

  No offense, but your bf sounds like a real dumbass, and he's really not taking responsiblity here for his actions even though he admitted up above that he's been deceitful etc.

  • I know I'm not perfect, but have i not been good to you overall?

  clearly, and obviously not.
• 
  
  

  • 
    
    Yet, I have low self-esteem and such an accusation on my very self has really effected me. I have made great strides in therapy before this relationship. You deny the facts that say I do not have this disorder. I have been in therapy and my mental health issues are being addressed. I've not been in denial about them.
    

  • good

• She's discounting my own therapist which is quite unprofessional.

true

My opinion is there really is nothing here that suggests you have bpd other than bf and his therapist trying to diagnose you.

Also, my opinion there isn't much of a relationship here because of his dishonesty which he's admitted and it seems like you can't drop it. So, either forgive, forget and don't bring it up again or end it and move on. Personally, I think you should move on..

[cboxpalace]

p.s. I think I spoke to you once before on another website.. I recognize the name unless that is a different person using the same name. I can't remember exactly what it was all about though..

[Atalanta]

Cbox,

Thank you for your response. It's a lot to take in. I'm very grateful that you took the time to go through it the way you did. I haven't much a response only because I just just have nothing to say. I'm letting things sink in.

I don't think we've met in another website. This is the first BPD related post I made.

[BrokenNBeautiful]

thanks for your story.

I also broke up with my husband last year because we had problems with my bpd (I do have bpd).

He had read an article about bpd and the spouse, in an online magazine and had gotten so worked up about it.

I was pleased, on one level, that he was finally validated as a loved one of a person with bpd, but he had gotten so worked up about it that he had said some hurtful things he could never take back.

So we divorced.

It is an individual decision for each person; if we decided we cannot deal with issues, we have a right to leave.

I am sorry about this.

Wishing you healing.

I really hate having to see how people are upset by our issues, whether we have the condition of bpd or not.

I could no longer deal with Dane's (husband) pain; I could have never lived down another relationship failed.

I nipped it in the bud.

Billi

[Atalanta]

Thank you Billi,

I hope I wasn't too insensitive to you folks here. The reason I chose a BPD forum for those diagnosed was because I knew it would have those individuals responding who recognize and are dealing with it. I feel I'm being accused as someone who both has BPD and is unaware of it.

I am getting a real taste (BPD or not) of what some of you are no doubt experiencing. The over zealous SO who has read so much on the topic, yet shows little real understanding of it. Using partners of BPD language to assign thought distortions that often or at least sometimes are not there. Add that to the knowledge that one has the tendency to have thought distortions, and it's a recipe for psychological torture.

Much love to you all.

[fletch33]

It is pretty clear that the main issue is not your potential BPD, but more the fact that this guy and you have a very unhealthy relationship.

Trust me, no man is worth this much agony. I say get out while the getting is good. He seems like a jerk.

Best of luck though if you do decide to leave him. If you don't decide to leave him, please take care of yourself.

[Forgive77]

I don't really think that, and this is just my opinion, anyone with mental illness should be dating someone who's profession is about diagnosing people like us. I think that's harmful to you because you will have a tendency to accept anything he says as truth, and substitute his judgement as your own. Also, you have the whole...he's a therapist, and he's got issues too thing going on...and that just chalks him up to a dirt bag in your mind it seems. Move on from him is my vote. Also, many people can have some of the traits and not be borderline. Good luck to you.

[BrokenNBeautiful]

Originally Posted by Forgive77

I don't really think that, and this is just my opinion, anyone with mental illness should be dating someone who's profession is about diagnosing people like us.

I used to have a bf who was studying psychology and I was his guinea pig. I hated it. He continually implied that I was "nuts". Part of the damage I sustained.

I also agree that often a person will accept things like this as truth. I did. I am trying to undo that now. I recently told Bruce (my roommate) that I did not like him using words like "whacko" and "nut", and "crazy".

It can be really demeaning.

Billi