Interpreting Social Group Dynamics

So, I've gotten involved with a new group and trying to figure out the dynamics. I'm very analytical and an INTJ.

One thing that really frustrates me about social groups is just the labeling that goes on. I see it happen all the time.. Someone does something that someone else doesn't like. So they talk to someone else about it, and then they label the person.. they talk to others and pretty soon the group reacts to that person like they actually are that label. The only problem is, the group is wrong, and the person in question is forced to figure out how to deal with the situation.

I worry about this happening to me. And it has happened to me on occasion. Because of some reactions lately, I'm afraid this group may have defined me as a racist homophobe. I am neither.... But, what to do? My reasoning is so subtle, that I think I'd come across as crazy if I tried to explain why I think this is the case (that they've decided this about me).

Can anyone else relate to what I'm saying?

shakespeare47, I can understand how you feel. What you just described is one reason I'm not a "group" person. How large is this group?

The group I'm thinking of has about 10-12 members. I suspect what I see is actually happening... but, I don't think most people would care... we people with BPD traits can be hypervigilant.. and my NPD traits make me very sensitive to criticism... And I tend to see these issues in every social group I've encountered.

It helps me just to remember that I don't have to attend every meeting... and I can leave at anytime. And I ask myself... do I care that much about what people think about me? Especially people who have issues that cause them to label others without even pausing to check their assumptions?

I am entertained at times by the dynamics I see concerning other members. I like to see how they are gently harassed, and watch how they deal with it. Most people know how to acknowledge the other's comments, and respond in measured ways that leave me admiring their self-respect.

I'm autistic so social dynamics don't mean much to me anyway but i am familiar with what you're talking about and i think it falls down to whole 'power in numbers' chestnut. People generally don't like to risk a disagreement and therefore fall out of favour with other members of their social group - it could prove disadvantageous for them. What i don't understand is why more people just don't say anything. For me that's the best compromise, not agreeing is not necessarily disagreeing. I also don't understand why everything has to become so personal or why one opinion is considered better than another. Sometimes i'm glad i genuinely can't relate to most other people.

Social dynamics mean a lot to me. I'm starting to realize just how hypervigilant I can be. And of course, I believe I'm right, and no one else understands the things I do.. lol.

I wish I could just stop caring.. to be as boring as some of the others.

This is one of the reasons I so rarely share my philosophies. They are beyond basic understanding and early arguments which most group mentality will settle at that its a recipe for disaster and being misunderstood - also, its a little boring to stay at the basic understanding level on a topic which you are intellectualy pursuing.

I have a feeling that is likely what is going on there.. you shared a deeper understanding or possible belief on something and they have only every grasped the social or group mentality version and not really searched for answers themselves.

Unfortunately it is pretty common

Yeah... Exactly, I can relate. and more than that... I do give people the benefit of the doubt... if anything, I am too longsuffering. I end up putting up with all kinds of crap, because I try to understand where the other person is coming from... But, I can also be judgmental... I'm a contradictory mess, lol.

Anyway... here are some people in this group that bother me.

D.V.- she has a 4 year psychology degree.... she insulted me once by suggesting that I should look into abnormal psychology. There have been several times when I've seen her to listen to someone talking and then tell them flatly that the they shouldn't act that way. She seems to think that because she has this degree (she's an administrator, it's not like she's even a therapist ), that she understands people, and gets to judge them and tell them what's what. I haven't heard her express a single opinion of her own (except that she tells people to stop reacting the way they do).. but, she has no problem telling others that their opinions are wrong.

She also made a point of letting me know that she had a notebook ( this was only one occasion), and was writing things down. She sounded rather angry when she said it, and I got the impression she was trying to intimidate me. I didn't say anything, but I did get out my smartphone and started taking some notes..
I get the sense that she thinks she gets to decide what reality is. She hasn't got a clue that there is a difference between her perspectives and opinions, and the truth. If she decides something is so, then it's so. End of story.

I have a hard time thinking of her as anything but an idiot, and not someone I'd like to get to know.

Here's another one...

D.S. He has some NPD traits, but is rather understated and almost charming. He lets people know that he hates kids, and he is very underhanded in the way he shows his contempt (for almost everyone) and arrogance. I hope rather than know that his self-professed hatred of children is like that of Dr. Allen Grant, the character from the movie Jurassic Park.

He's kind of an arrogant know-it-all, and I should know, because I can be the same way, lol. He does have a sense of humor and makes me laugh at times. And we both like old cars... But, the way he talks about kids really pisses me off.

shakespeare47, Do you feel you make positive contributions to the group and vice versa? By going to this group do you feel it is helping you grow as a person?

Sometimes.. we all do have one thing in common. We're atheists... And again... I have never been in a group for very long, without having some kind of issues that just made me want to leave.

I just see my time with them as socializing... I need it. I need to be able to get out and just spend time with people. However, I can keep my expectations low. I don't have any expectations other than to get together with them and share some meals... And honestly, not all of them like each other, either. I see all kinds of interesting dynamics taking place. I think I'll just continue to come to this thread to comment on what I see going on. Like an interesting science experiment.

I don't really need anything from them other than to be around them.

and there are some interesting people in the group that I haven't yet mentioned, that could become friends... we'll see. I'm not there, yet.

And unfortunately, I exhibit some BPD and NPD traits that make some of my encounters less than fun, from someone else's perspective.

So, yeah... being in the group does have benefits for me...

shakespeare47, Sounds like you get a lot out of this group! You can observe others and participate if you choose. It sounds like a excellent way to socialize! Please keep us informed.

((shakespeare)),

It "can" be hard to be part of a group or (click) of people. Typically there is an alpha know it all and then a ranking around that person. You are right, there is ususally labeling that takes place too where each person gets ranked within the group. Any "new comer" will be examined to identify them with a label to see "if" they will fit into the group too.

Let's just put aside what you feel is NPD traits here. You have a past where you were a victim and that really affected your ego and self esteem. The alphas in your home were both abusive strong minded individuals and you didn't really have an "identity" and when you tried to have an identity you were not "appreciated, respected, or nurished". It would make sense that you would struggle in a group situation because of how your family group was so dysfunctional.

From what you are discribing of the individual that has a psychology degree? Well it sounds like she is the alpha of the group and uses her degree to "empower" herself and how she is doing that is ABNORMAL PSYCHOLOGY. The fact that she "threatens" by getting her notebook out? Oh, how awful and actually "sad" IMHO.

shakespeare, some psychologists go into that field because they themselves were challenged and want to know why or learn about psychology. They learn about different disorders and how to identify them etc, but that doesn't mean they understand "compassion and empathy and depth". Often they learn "techniques" and set up a "program" to treat patients, but they don't really "develop personally". Often what can happen is a psychologist can experience their own "personal crisis" and break down, or,
they can "heal themselves and learn and grow while they practice".

Just because you struggle with "criticism" doesn't mean you are NPD. When you watch a movie and something very "sad" takes place and you are moved by it, what that means is you understand "deep hurts" which means you have "empathy". If a psychologist is "good" and is looking at your behavior, it isn't about needing to label you or write you up, it is more about "seeing you" and helping you integrate into the group better.

That is a gift that Madela had that so many admired about him. Even the guard in charge of watching over him felt "good" in his presence.

Unfortunately when people form "groups" there is labeling and vying for positioning and messaging of egos that often takes place. And it is not unusual for "gossip" to take place either. I can think of a group that I had joined and how there was a core of alpha's in it and what I noticed is how many people in that group did not really feel "connected" and also how many just disconnected from it. I didn't have time to "service" that alpha group, so I disconnected too. I did however meet many who had tried to connect that were actually "nice" people but found that the "toxic" core was not really "inviting" and it just was not "worth" their time to "stay involved".

shakespeare, when someone struggles with what is called BPD, what that really means is that person has "extreme victim mentality" and they genuinely struggle with many PTSD traits and can go into "hyper arousal" if any of their deep wounds are triggered. It isn't that these individuals don't have "empathy" either, often they are afraid to empathize because that can open up boundaries that they never learned how to properly defend.

PTSD has what is called "cycles" to it, and so does BPD and that would make sense because both these psychological challenges involve "trauma" and deep hurts/wounds.
BPD is actually a form of what has been identified but not yet accepted in the DSM as
"complex PTSD". It isn't that there is "no empathy" involved, but more of a challenge with "apathy" and "fear".

To be honest, one of the "clues" you have given off is how in your business you do well for a while and then you fluxuate and stagnate. Also, when you are in a group and have this need to be the center of attention somehow and as soon as it doesn't bode well for you, you cave in and disconnect feeling wounded and "unworthy" and "defeated".

What that really means is you are "trapped" in the wounds you experienced as a child that never had a chance to "shine" and have that much needed "unconditional" love. Well, you know "hurt" very intimately, too intimately and while you do have the intellect and knowledge and did a lot of homework, you still have not figured out how to get past the point of "achieving" and "deserving recognition and appreciation" for it. Most who suffer from BPD have this problem and they try to achieve and shine, but, they are expecting to face some kind of punishment and rejection, so they really struggle with trust and apathy. There is a "self absorption" that takes place with this, but it is not NPD, but would seem to be so though.

What I do not like about the diagnosis of NPD is that it can be harmful to the patient and lead them to feel they are somehow "just not ever going to be good enough". And you are right in that there "is" a negative stigma that comes with both the diagnoses of BPD and NPD. And even therapists often don't like to treat these patients and stigmatize them too.

I had come across members that had BPD and I did not really understand them so I asked my T about them. He explained to me that he really disliked that diagnosis and that these individuals have typically experienced childhood traumas and abuse and that they are actually very "treatable" with the right therapy as he has treated them and saw how they were capable of making substancial progress.

shakespeare, when your therapist tells you that he doesn't see empathy in you, honestly, I really think he is observing apathy instead. What has saddened me is that I have seen others like you that suffer from getting to a point where they begin to "turn many negatives" inward and get "worse" instead of being allowed to actually "heal" with the right therapy.

You see your son and find him very interesting and pleasing and entertaining, you have talked about how the cats are interesting and entertaining as well. You "have" a sense of appreciation, but where you struggle is in "connecting to that emotionally" and being able to "embrace" it. Well, you never had that shown to you, or experienced it for yourself and instead you were "hurt". IMHO, that is a wound that leads to "apathy" because you are afraid of being rejected or hurt. Well, you certainly don't need to endure a label that can be "stigmatizing and punishing", how is that going to help you bridge that gap?

That is why I liked that article that was presented about therapists needing to be very empathetic with patients that may be expressing some NPD traits or BPD traits. My advice is not to bother connecting with that group that is lead by that know it all psychologist because from what you have discribed of her, she is way too on the defensive and threatening people with "I have a pad to write you up on", is not something that is going to prove productive to someone like you.

The kind of group that would help you is one that is lead by a Mandela like persona that has a true gift for "including" everyone. Well, that is hard to find these days.

OE

What about sharing you opinions online? I get a lot of satisfaction by spending a lot of time on another forum that is devoted to personality types. I start a thread about whatever provocative topic I want... and then keep responding until people are forced to see where I'm coming from. I do not tolerate being misunderstood in that forum. I show people where they have misunderstood and what I am really saying. It's very therapeutic for me.

But, it's much more difficult and time-consuming in real life. In person, I find I must just be patient and refuse to react... Then I keep just being myself. If people can't figure out who I am and what I stand for... that's their problem, not mine.

They also have a responsibility not to jump to conclusions and judgements, and to treat the friendship with some level of maturity, i've been in this situation pretty much all my life.

Well, in this particular situation. They're not friends. They don't pretend to be my friends. We're just members of a social group. I think some of them react in ridiculous, underhanded, immature ways... and, I don't think there is anything to be done about it, except to find ways to protect myself (and ways to behave appropriately myself), and continually keep in mind that I have no real attachment to these people. Most of them have an advantage because they have known each other for some time, and have spent more time getting to know one another, whereas I'm a relative newcomer.

To paraphrase what a friend of mine used to say "I've got nothing to lose.. I was looking for a social group before I started meeting with them.:". LOL.

And of course... I'm not a completely innocent party. But, I would like to at least get along with these people. And I'm working on what I believe are my issues.

If you are spending time needing to find ways to have others see your point of view that can be futile if they just don't have the capacity to recognize your POV though. For myself, if I have a strong POV, and another person is challenging me in a reasonable way, I like it because it can broaden my thoughts on my POV. Depending on "what" kind of personality types you are discribing it could be worth it, but not if you need to win because that personality type reminds you of some kind of "demon" from your past necessarily.

The worst problem I see right now, is just the labeling. I see people get mad, create a label, tell others about what they have decided about the person in question, and then the group assumes that label is correct.
That's my biggest issue. I'm not so sure everyone in the group does it, or buys in... and that's what I'm attempting to find out.

Plus,a lot of atheists can be very anti-religion. Me, not so much. Most of my acquaintances are religious. And I'm not convinced religions are doing more harm than good.

It's kinda funny, because I think I know a lot more about the particular organization most of us are a part of... and I've read it's mission statement, and know who some of their well-known members are. This is from their mission statement And one of it's well-known members warns atheists not to become "Westboro atheists" or "the town atheist".
I fantasize about using some of the statements from this well-known member, get them all up in arms against him, and then reveal that he is also a member of the same organization.

Perhaps most of them aren't so radically anti-religion. I'll keep an eye on them.

And I do see some hopeful signs. Someone new started attending, and in a subtle way, he let me and the others sitting near me know that he thought I was acting crazy. But, some of the others came to my defense in subtle ways, and let me know that they thought it was the newcomer who had the problem, and not me.

I revealed on the group's private facebook page that my mom has breast cancer and will be having a double-mastectomy tomorrow.
Anyway... it was encouraging that one of them, R.L., let me know that she was there for me.... and a few others J.B and J.D. acknowledged my post and gave some advice.

R.L. seems really intelligent, well read, cool, and kind-hearted. She's a single mom and just started dating J.B. She's also bilingual and well traveled.
She hugs me every time we see each other (but no one else!), and has let me know that she thinks I'm a kind person.
She also sent some encouraging messages via facebook letting me know that she has had some hard times with her parents, also, and has an idea of what I'm going through.

Okay, it's been 20 days... and things are still going okay with the group. Sometimes I feel bad, because I feel like I'm being picked on... then I notice that I'm not the only target... I don't think it's been anything to get overly concerned about...
There have been other times when I've felt a little guilty for some sarcastic outbursts...

Another member that attends from time to time is L.K. - he is very sarcastic.. and when he gets sarcastic, I get sarcastic, especially if I think I'm the target (and I have been on at least one occasion). He is probably a decent guy.. he just expresses himself with sarcasm, instead of being direct.

Another dynamic is that I'm proud of what I do for a living... and I've talked about it with some pride and arrogance.. and now I feel like I'm having to pay for that pride and arrogance by being set up to continually prove that I'm good at what I do.

I still go back and forth on D.S. I think he is incredibly intelligent... but, he can be rather down-putting... and arrogant.

and they're becoming more important to me. I still feel awkward at times, because it seems I'm revealing more of myself to them, than they are to me...

but, I'm getting more an idea of who they are.. and background info about them...

I'm like wide open... telling them about my crazy fundamentalist family... etc. etc.... and perhaps I told them too much, too soon. But, it is my personality.. that's what I do.. lol.
I told them recently I have a dream of some day owning my own business. I feel embarrassed that now they will hold me to that desire.. and/or tease me about it.. and/or insinuate that it will never happen... I get defensive and angry just thinking about it...
At least I haven't revealed any embarrassing personal struggles, or told them anything about NPD or BPD.

Another member I haven't talk about yet, is P.Z.
he also seems really intelligent... and well read.. and interesting... and someone I hope likes me. He's just a really likable interesting guy. and it just so happens we're both taking Linear Algebra at the same time. Quite a coincidence.
He's taken many classes on various subjects like American Sign Language, Russian (the language), etc. etc.

He cares very little about material things. He drives a crappy car... and is self-effacing. He's got this really cool, long beard.... It's just refreshing to meet someone that is so different from everyone else.

I've been avoiding talking about F.R. He's the one that invited me to the group. But, he's dating D.V., and I don't see much good in her. I have mixed feelings about F.R. Sometimes it seems he is pretty cool, other times, it's like he's judging me....
And I still just don't get D.V.'s attitude toward me. I almost get the sense it's something someone else told her I did, vs her being mad at something I did. It's kinda infuriating.....it is very possible that I did something that pissed her off... but, what? I get the sense she thinks to herself "you know what you did!".

I don't actually see F.R. or D.V. interact much with the others like I would expect them to.... They tend to be stand-offish with everyone.... and D.V. just has a weird attitude with everyone, it seems.