[archipelago]

I am not sure the appropriate way to handle very strong and rigid opinions that seem counterproductive or even harmful. It says everywhere in the guidance on this site that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are equal or equally valid. And some are really judgmental in disguise of supposed "advice." When I see that happening, I really want to do something to change the direction of the thread, but meta-comments are also not allowed so I feel confused about the whole thing.

[Aunt]

I'm confused - - Can we not respectfully disagree with one another?

[FrayedEnds]

Originally Posted by archipelago

but not all opinions are equal or equally valid.

that's really an eye of the beholder type thing, isn't it?

[archipelago]

Originally Posted by Aunt

I'm confused - - Can we not respectfully disagree with one another?

The key word is "respectfully." Of course there will be disagreement, but this isn't really a place for debate. It is a place of mutuality and support. If someone has a strong opinion and wants to give advice, but that "advice" is really a kind of judgement, even if partly disguised, so I don't think that is helpful and there should be a way to handle it.

[archipelago]

It's not exactly in the eye of the beholder because sometimes people just aren't on target or have gotten something wrong or are personalizing or projecting. In those cases their opinion is not as valid as someone's who has taken the issue in with closer and more accurate attention, with less unprocessed personal material influencing how they respond. There is a difference between responding and reacting.

[DocJohn]

I find it pretty hard to distinguish between what is well-meaning advice -- with no ulterior motives given -- and something someone else might see as "judgment." Anytime we disagree with another, it is a kind of judgment, insomuch that we judge the other person's opinion to be not our own. Some might say it's of lesser value, but I try and look at it the other way -- that others know a lot more than I do (especially about their own lives!), and so I find it of greater value. Even if I disagree with it.

But it's hard to get that across in so many words. And it's even harder when we bring all of our own prejudices, preconceptions, experiences, etc. to the conversation -- stuff that few other members might not know anything about.

So -- like all human social interactions -- it's often complicated.

I always say try and put the best of intentions onto other people's words, since you have no idea in what manner they were meant (since we have little insight into tone, outside of the occasional smiley).

Best,
DocJohn

PS - "It says everywhere in the guidance on this site that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are equal or equally valid." I would love to see where we say that, because those are not words I ever recall writing.

[archipelago]

Thanks for your measured response. I will try to take that in as I go along. I do realize that people have a lot they are going through and reasons for what they say that I have no idea about. It's good to have that in the forefront of my mind.

Here is something posted about judgement and support in the Psychotherapy forum that I read as people being entitled to their own opinions:

"Opinions are neither right nor wrong -- they are simply one person's perspective on a situation. If someone disagrees with your opinion, that doesn't make them wrong, an idiot, or without insight. It makes them different than you, that's all."

[DocJohn]

Yes, indeed I did say everyone is entitled to their own opinions ... and I still believe that. However, nowhere did I say that all opinions are not equal or equally valid. That's what I object to, because I believe that all opinions are equal. My disagreement with one's opinion doesn't mean that opinion is less valid than my own... just that I don't agree with it.

You can respect one another, yet still disagree with them. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Best,
DocJohn

[archipelago]

An example of a miscommunication. I am the one who is saying that all opinions are not equally valid not you. But we need not go into that. I understand why you are saying what you are saying. I don't agree but it's a different kind of approach.

[pegasus]

If you think someone's opinion has crossed the line, please report it so the mod team can look at it.

[archipelago]

Okay, thanks for that. I thought that that was only for "abusive" posts but if it is also for ones that cross a line, then it is better to have a mod look at it.

I think probably there are miscommunications when there are different perspectives on what support means, and what kind of support might be most helpful in a given situation. Different individuals are better at offering different kinds of support and also different individuals are more responsive to different types of support.

It has been my experience that some types of support might be viewed as unproductive if they are unfamiliar.

[archipelago]

I agree with that observation but would add that sometimes it's not the person who is unfamiliar with the "advice," but the person giving it. Sometimes people can be way off base and say something that can be seen as destructive or harmful. Not that they intend this, but there are unconscious things that happen. And for me it seems that there are times when it is clearly mostly a projection. When that happens, I actually don't think the person has a valid opinion. They are being reactive not responsive. there is a huge difference between the two.

Originally Posted by archipelago

I agree with that observation but would add that sometimes it's not the person who is unfamiliar with the "advice," but the person giving it. Sometimes people can be way off base and say something that can be seen as destructive or harmful. Not that they intend this, but there are unconscious things that happen. And for me it seems that there are times when it is clearly mostly a projection. When that happens, I actually don't think the person has a valid opinion. They are being reactive not responsive. there is a huge difference between the two.

So there are two options there-
if one feels this observation is 100% accurate for whatever reason, perhaps privately and respectfully address the person who seems to be projecting.

The other option is to contact the moderator.

I think, as has been brought up [I think?] it is difficult to ascertain another's motives. Simply because an individual views a specific situation in a certain view it does not mean they are projecting; even if that is the case it doesn't make their POV invalid- because given their view of the world and the situation, and therefor the information they have at hand, that is the opinion they have developed.

Everyone's opinion of a situation is colored by, and developed because of, their experience. Simply because a person interprets a specific situation inaccurately [making assumptions based on the information provided to them that may be untrue] it doesn't make their opinion invalid. It may mean their specific experience does not apply to a given situation, but their opinion can still be valid and useful.

ETA: I would suggest that some thought be put into the notion of marking individuals' comments, opinions, thoughts as "invalid". It is a very strong label. Perhaps one that is actually harmful in itself.

[archipelago]

Sorry to use that word. It is from another context, but you are right to point out that in this context it is a terrible word to use.

This is too much to discuss here. It has to do with epistemology and theories of relativism that most people don't really care about. I'm not a relativist. I do think some views are closer to the truth and some are off. That is all I meant by saying not all opinions are equal. You can say the moon is made of cheese but is that equal to saying it is a satellite of Earth without an atmosphere composed of dust and minerals?

Originally Posted by archipelago

You can say the moon is made of cheese but is that equal to saying it is a satellite of Earth without an atmosphere composed of dust and minerals?

Ha.
No it is not.
But to say the latter is hardly an opinion; it is more along the line of fact.
Therein really lies the difference.

In discussion which seeks and receives advice such as we have on this board and in this community, there is little save medication do's and don't's [and even much of that is not necessarily absolute] that is fact rather than opinion.

Unfortunately, in the realm of support and advice not a whole lot is black and white. I don't know if you experience this as a frustration, but I do at times and have difficulties resolving it myself on occasion.

ETA:Maybe it's a bit forward of me to assume so, and I apologize if it is, but you seem to embrace a more "hard science" approach. I appreciate that if it is the case, but it can sometimes be difficult to apply to relationships and social spheres. [also, I apologize if i am wrong- evidently I am projecting haha ]

[archipelago]

It's okay. Actually no I'm hardly "hard science" at all, though I read about science. But even modern science has admitted that there are no real facts because the observer has an effect, even if small, on what is observed.

So with the moon example, I would not say the second description is a fact, but rather the current opinion or view or perspective on what the moon might be. Look at my signature. I believe that we actually are quite limited in our knowledge and these type of "facts" have changed granted over centuries, but still have radically altered.

Within a social and emotional and psychological context, it may not be appropriate to apply this type of thinking, which I'm grateful to have pointed out and will take in as good feedback. As some wise people have said, who am I?

[venusss]

How do you know who is projecting and who is not? Often, especially in psychotherapy, I see two groups "tell-it-as-it-is-and-it-is-harsh" and "let's-have-pity-and-enable-party". Now what is more destructive?

I know I may be big of beyotch with my approach... but I consider "oh yes, it's horrible, you are doomed, but it's not your fault, because of *insert deux ex excusia* happened... and you will never be able to overcome it" much much worse.

[archipelago]

I really don't know what to say in response. I don't share the view of such a dichotomy between those two positions. I just haven't seen it as two different and opposed approaches so that is not what I was talking about. And so I can't answer your question.

Projection you could claim is hard to detect, especially in writing, but it is actually relatively obvious when it does happen. And I don't necessarily want to be judgmental about it. People here have "issues" so projections are going to happen. In fact they happen at a minute level all the time. It's when it becomes rigid and fixed that I begin to feel somewhat alarmed. There are rules here about not being judgmental so a projection that might sound like "advice" might actually be judgmentalism in disguise.

I should probably add that I feel this issue has been addressed, at least my concerns have. And I learned a thing or two so I'm not sure if we should continue to debate it. I don't mind but I'm not sure about others.

[venusss]

Oh, there isn't just two ways around here... but it's the two poles that seem to clash.

[archipelago]

I do see your point of course, but it isn't something I have really paid that much attention to and not my concern here. So in a way this is an instructive example of a minor projection because there was a way in which you assumed something that turned out not to be accurate for me.

[growlycat]

Then there are those who "tell it like it is" but never reveal anything about themselves. Is it helpful, or just sanctimonious , a little something that only makes you feel good about yourself?

Enabling or trashing, I'm not a fan of censorship anyways.

Is this still a helpful conversation?

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by archipelago

There is a difference between responding and reacting.

I like how you used this sentence, and I do agree, there is a difference. I have seen reactive postings and responsive posting. At the same time, when I read, personally, I do my best, to keep in mind, there's a variety of people here, with various backgrounds, perspectives, and at different parts of their own journeys.
It's almost a given, there will be mixed responses to most posts here(responsive/reactive). Just by virtue of we are all at different places, emotionally.


Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2

[sabby]

Originally Posted by archipelago

I am not sure the appropriate way to handle very strong and rigid opinions that seem counterproductive or even harmful. It says everywhere in the guidance on this site that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are equal or equally valid. And some are really judgmental in disguise of supposed "advice." When I see that happening, I really want to do something to change the direction of the thread, but meta-comments are also not allowed so I feel confused about the whole thing.

If one is responding to a thread, keeping with what the OP's topic is, that is your best bet in your responding. Sticking to their topic, there is no need to argue with other posters in an unsupportive way. The OP can take what is posted to them and apply it, if it is acceptable to them, that's great, if they find no connection to what's been said, they can choose to not accept it and move on.

Sometimes the written word can be misunderstood since there is no face to face communication. We miss out on tone, body language and facial expression when reading words. There can be miss-communications in that way and I believe that is when some difficulties can arise.

Whenever you see a post that you feel is unsupportive in some way, please feel free to report that post to the Community Support Team. We will research the issue and decide if there should be any action taken, such as edits. That is not to say that every report will end with an action taken, but we do appreciate when members report things as we cannot possibly see each and every post that is made daily.

If you find a particular member goes against your grain, you have the option of putting them on your ignore list. That can be very helpful and is a great "self care" tool.

At this time, I will be closing this thread.

Thank you all for your input.

With Care,
sabby
Community Support Team