Is there a difference?

Trigger due to I am talking about suicide.

First- I really like this website right now--
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/suicide_help.htm
It is similar to the website I found one day when I was down that said- wait 5 seconds, 5 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, 6 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours.... realize that the pain is due to not coping well. Coping skills will help with managing the pain..

My question is -- is there a difference with attempts of suicides?

I don't think so- I think all attempts are part of not coping well-- but my issue right now that I AM Dealing with IS GUILT that a person is Attempting-- As if they try to put part of the reason is due to me.. My Mother has done this to me-- My Oldest sister made well and sure that I knew that our mother attempted due to Me of expressing how I felt and feelings. I realize that with my mom at least-- this was just to get others against me, to hate me, to warn others not tell her their feelings.... Many people do not understand where I stand- even my sisters I am sure may be a little confused, but my mother left me for dead one time -- it is something I have trouble getting over and doubt that I will fully every get over-- due to she was straight forward- "I was pretty sure you were oding but I just left you there"....
I understand that some people will say- Dumb Teenager using drugs- but that is their opinion. It was my bad coping skills at the time.

My recent thing these days is my brother- he has a lot of similarities to our mother I must sadly say--- He has been attempting suicide by laying on rail road tracks, walking into on coming traffic.... and another one here not too long ago (just found out last Sunday- with something).

For a while now- i have told him to get help.. he needs a therapist- I keep bringing up better coping skills... and ya know what I am ignored.

How do i deal with this? i keep saying a day at a time--- but I am just so tired.

There is more to this story of my brother a lot more.... My sister thinks I should tell him how I feel, how he effects me (i.e. I shut down after we talk due to how he treats me)... I don't think he really cares.. I have told him in the past with our first detaching on how I felt and got it used against me.. so if anyone can understand I may not up forth with that.

i do feel guilt- i just wish I could take away all of this and have him better and myself better but I can only work on me.


Has anyone else dealt with attempted suicides like this?

I have had a friend that committed suicide, friends that were close to death not "attempting" like my brother or my mom has.

I sound like a real ***** to say-- serious attempts of suicide and then less serious attempts of suicide--

No matter what I think is serious- it does come down to coping skills... I will not debate about that.

i guess I am just -- not enough sleep, tearing myself apart for well the last two weeks a lot on this and i am just so tired.

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

I'm so sorry you are huring with all of this beauflow. I don't have a lot of experience with suicide, but I can still share my thoughts on some of what you said.

A few things stood out to me. First, the idea that your mom attempting suicide and then blaming that on you is terrible. It sounds very manipulative. She has her own problems and it is her responsibility to deal with them. If she does have a problem with you it is her responsibility to deal with it, though it does not sound like she does a lot of direct communication. So I understand that you feel guilty and I can't really stop that, but I do want you to know it is not your fault. I hope in time you will feel less guilty.

The second thing that stood out to me was what you said about you can only work on yourself. As painful as that can be sometimes we can only do so much for other people. If your brother doesn't want to get well then there is nothing you or anyone else can do to help him. He has to get that himself.

Finally, it sounds like your family issues are very toxic for you. I don't know if you have a T, but I'm guessing you do and that you talk to them about this? But my real point is that maybe it would be best if you created some emotional distance between you and your family? I hate to see you being hurt by people who only seem to care about themselves. It just isn't healthy from what you say.

Thanks for posting this and I hope it helps you work through some of it!

((((Beau)))) I am sorry you are struggling. I am so sorry you are hurting. I think I know what you are trying to say...I hope I am not too far off-base!

I don't know if this helps but my T1 talked to me about the difference between Pain and Suffering. In relation to coping.

It sounds as if there is suffering. And for good reason. But in order to move forward (to not get stuck, SI, in Suffering), perhaps you, too, can focus on the intense Pain and how you feel (may be some anger in there, too. I know there is for me!), acknowledge it, talk about it with T., validate it ... so then YOU can move forward.

Pain = OK for a time
Suffering =

When I worked to change my thinking in that way (it didn't happen overnight), other people's stuff took on less importance to me (although I love them and care and perhaps they have hurt me DEEPLY, I don't go "there" anymore...I try not to let myself get to the "Suffering" stage).

Also, I know I complained about this before, but I have taken on a "coping" mantra to help get me through when I am struggling (in pain) so I don't let it turn to suffering / depression / SI (and again IT DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T LOVE OR CARE):

"It just doesn't matter".

(for example, yesterday someone in our NY office triggered the holy c***! out of me! And I was so upset. I remembered what my T said and also the lil' mantra and I didn't feel so low as to start beating myself up about it like I normally would)

I hope this helps a teeny bit.

Not sure what you are saying exactly but manipulative people would be capable of using threats and pseudo attempts to get what they are after. Hard to be sure though. Best to send them to a hospital and let the professionals sort it out.

((IowaFarmGirl)) Thanks- and yeah- they need to go to the hospital- I am not around when these attempts go on- I just get the phone calls of-- I tried to end my life.. The hospitals let him out saying he is fine-- I tell him to get into therapy..
It is very hard to explain, and it is very confusing for some to understand -- and I think it does come down to manipulation

((DailyHealing and RosePanachee))

I am just --- I am tired-- I know many others have said what you two said.. and it is like an never ending story- --- take that control back with this- Take Care of Me with it all... is hard for some reason with out being pulled into theirs... I do need a therapist, I have been trying so hard with not being effected- and I just seem to fail at it at times.

My family I have distanced away from- only my two sisters in a blue moon i talk to, and my brother I am trying to disconnect from due to abusive/manipulation ways he uses on me and I get hurt (Not the attempts is that- it is other actions), i did it once but got swamped in-- I am so tired of dealing with this issue.

My mom's stuff over time as dimmed and yeah have said- it is not my fault, I still at times can take a step back and get upset- but thanks for the reminder... i know i still have work on this to go through.

I don't have a T at the moment, I tried the county but every time when talking about my family ex-t did not want to get into that with me... I know I need to find another that is willing to talk to me on this- to talk about this stuffs but I do talk to my SO on it a lot- he gives validation; and IDK with how ex-t acted IDK if another t could help me with this- perhaps it is time.. idk.

Manipulation in the worse ways- this is something strong with mom and brother-- i don;t like to think me as weak but i feel weak that I was able to break from our mom but have yet fully with my brother....

I guess what hurts more is that now I have one of his long time friends that I am friends with too-- now asking questions, and I am afraid to indulge this all, due to I know they don't know of the stuff that my brother did with angry manipulation/emotional control on me and I wish him to get better- so I have asked them if they can support him with getting therapy and that is all.

Rose you hit it, I care but this is tearing me apart... I guess I need to remind myself that I do care but it does not mean I have to suffer with what they do or try to put me through....

I am just so tired of this. I wish he would just go in!!! and I talked some where else that about two weeks ago I had my decision- i was not taking crap then my SO disagreed and it seems like since then- I have just let this eat away at me....

I need to remind myself- that I can not do this for them with getting help--

I am sorry-- i guess I am just so upset with it right now- again

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

the sad part is two hours ago he said he would call me back (today i found out of the 3rd attempt this last weekend)-- he has yet to call me back and I am up, losing sleep-- I can't call into to work tonight due to I need the money and my supervisor would get upset with the short notice-- i think i will try to lay down-- if he calls he calls-- for some reason I doubt he will and I am being the moron with waiting on him

I dont get why the hospitals just let him out... 3 times this year--when is enough enough-- i fear he will go back to jail if he keeps doing this in public areas.. which that wont help him.

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

(((beauflow))),

I am so sorry that your family has put "their problems in your lap" so much. You have certainly thrown enough life preservers to your brother and no, you can't jump in because he is at a point where he will pull you under as well. And basically that sounds like what both your mother and brother are doing. They are not getting the picture that they need to take the life preserver and swim to their safety.

You have given your brother the right advice, he needs to get PROFESSIONAL HELP.
I am also surprised that the hospital keeps discharging him with no outside plan to help him. A hospital is there to help stabilize the patient and help them get the outpatient help they need "as a life preserver" to help themselves get better.

It sounds to me that your mother is an unstable disfuctional person and this has caused her children to struggle as well. Unfortunately this happens a lot and I have been a member of PC for a little over a year now and have read the threads of many who are troubled due to their disfunctional parents and family. And I keep reading how many of the members have had to just break free and stay away from their families. It is unfortunate but often necessary for their own mental health.

I have gotten to know you beauflow and I know you have been trying very hard to "help yourself" and I have seen you make a lot of progress. I know you have such a good heart as well, and I understand how hard it is to say "no" to your brother. But you are "not" a professional and he will drag you down with him, and you know that as well. So what can you do? All you can do is direct him to get help beauflow, and if he doesn't do that there is nothing more you can do for him.

The bottom line is that we can only "help" others "help" themselves, we cannot do the work for them when it comes to their psychological issues.

beauflow, you have a nice boyfriend and you deserve to have your own life and happiness. Your family members need to help themselves. Your brother is not listening to you and you have done what you can for him. And you already know that he has some dangerous issues going on as well. You have tried to report him to get help for him and the hospital has not listened to you. I don't know what else you could do.

You have to take care of you and come to terms with your brothers unwillingness to keep getting help for himself.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes

((((Beau)))) I realize how stressful and exhausting this all must be...I really hope you are taking good care of you and trying really hard to be kind to yourself. xx
Hugs,
Rose

((Open Eyes)) & ((RosePanachee)) & ((All))

Thank you--
I get mad at me-- I hate that at times I feel "I can do this and I got it handled", then I can fall apart again with the same thing that I supposedly had handled.... then I am complaining about the same story due to "bump came"-

I don't get why the hospital wont get outside help either- I asked him about that with the 2nd attempt call and he said they don't do that--- I am just boggled with it all. I get worried that if the hospital says he is fine, and he does this again that the cops will take him in for like disturbing the peace or something and he go back to jail-- but i need to remember that is not my fault if that happens.


Well I did end up with waiting a little longer and then ended up falling asleep and woke up -- he never called back- not a real big surprise but sigh- anger that did pass.

His Friends (a couple) has not responded back either (I tried to call them as well earlier, after they sent me an email and I contacted my brother and got "the "new" scoop"; and I ended up sending them back an email when they would not answer their phones)..
I like these people that are his friends, but I don't need this extra stress- and I am sure they do not either but why ask if not going to respond back? I know everyone is busy- and that there is what I keep in mind.

Yeah RosePanachee mention anger--- a lot of anger and me and by me at least acknowledging that it is ok (actually one thing helpful from ex-t too, to say it is ok to be angry, but let it go as well) with all the stuff I have gone through with this, it is ok to be angry- and surprisingly *today* after my nap-- it has passed easier today after writing down and letting myself be angry then saying it was ok and accepting I can't do anything for him... IDK why that is hard for me at times.

I also told myself that if his friends don't understand my ground here, that is fine and ok- and just because they may not understand, does not mean no one understands.. and after all- I don't need approval from others to stop my suffering-- right? (right!).

I keep saying right now-- I can be around when he gets better, but I can't be around right now with how much effort I have put into this all, and need to let go.....
I guess it hurts in a way knowing, that I have spent so much time, effort with letting him know people care, get help for himself, that if I leave and say "I will be around when you get help and are better"-- i probably wont see him again- and even though logically I know that is a good thing, i guess it is just hard in another stand point...
Guess I should be honest with myself with saying-- I am done,
It hurts on another level-- I am really the only "blood family" that talks to him due to all the stuff he does.. idk why that hurts so bad, i guess me being too empathetic towards him on it... and that has been used and abused to my disadvantage sadly, by him.

Geez round 1 million Beauflow and Brother issue.... it just sucks

I will try to not let this come again... I was upset monday night with beating myself up over the (not last weekend) but the weekend before stuff with him and what my sister suggested-- Then this on Tuesday afternoon.

Oh and I also have told myself- My Sister may not have suggested what she did if she knew the whole story which I have not told her all of -- idk why, a part of me thinks she knows but realistically she could not fully know, only go off what she knows (which I know what she knows cuz it is from childhood).. Need stop beating myself up with not being able to do what the suggestion asked, and in away in the past - I already have,...

Why could I not figure this out earlier?

thank you all

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

beauflow,

It is not that you couldn't figure things out earlier dear, you genuinely have been triggered/upset by what is taking place. You have four other siblings that are not helping your brother, and you being the youngest, you should feel guilty? It sounds to me like you have done more for this brother than your siblings have. You can't expect to have the solution to his issues, you are not a professional and you struggle yourself beauflow.

Honestly?, it sounds like your family is not respecting the fact that you are also struggling and are not in any kind of position to take responsiblity for this older brother. You need to find a way to let go of the guilt that you are somehow not able to "fix" your brother or "know what to do for him" or "let him move in with you so he can drain you every day with his problems". You are not a psychologist or psychiatrist that can treat your brother and you are not an outpatient facility either.

You have needed to be validated for how you are feeling beauflow. Sometimes your boyfriend adds to some doubt because in his way he wonders about helping too. It is not that we don't want to help others either beau, it is being able to recognize that we don't have the "ability" to truely "fix" whoever is struggling. And there comes a point where you have to realize that a person has become dangerous and could very well pull you under with him/her.

It is not easy to have this kind of challenge beauflow. And this has been going on for you for a while now. Your brother cannot seem to manage his life and it isn't fair of him to ask "you" to manage his life when you can't really do that for him. You are not in a position where you are rich and can send him off to some place for help either.

You have done what you can.

Open Eyes

((((Beau)))) I echo ((((OE))))s sentiments...you have done so much. You are a wonderful, caring, lovely person. You are allowed to let go / back away with love.

((Open Eyes and RosePanachee)) Thank you--

I just wish this was easier- again another epiphany came about that I got this handled after i wrote what i had a few hours ago.. I hope this time around I do for my own sakes---

Open Eyes you hit one thing head on-- dangerous, and it is part of my fear here with my brother-- I don't know, I hate that I don't know, if he will be malicious with me disconnecting from him... My other sister (#4 not oldest) mentioned something that is head on on my fear with our brother-- When he feels cheated, hurt or betrayed his out lit is to hurt the one that has done that by any means possible.... I have experienced in different ways, she had experienced this in childhood from him, and worse yet I know what he has done to others in situations like this (Stocking and hurting physically and/or screwing them over dearly). I don't want to come home and find my windows broken out to my apt. or him come over and i wont let him in and he go off on me. His violent temper scars me sadly... it is something that holds onto me.
BUT---- I have told myself when I had that epiphany about a month ago before getting back in this and I have to remind myself-- The Police would be called -- I would not bat an eye with pressing charges in the event that he was the one that did the things-- windows broken out nothing could be done unless someone else saw him, but still. And my logical brain says there is nothing wrong with this but the other part says I am being cruel if I did so-- need to tell that other part to hush.

((Thank you Open Eyes and Rose Panachee and everyone else that has replied on this thread)) It is validation. and yeah my SO I wrote him a note the other night saying sorry I blamed the other day, with him for reopening this wound with me-- it is not right- It is not his fault as Open Eyes, you have mentioned, my SO tries to find away to help me out which sometimes is not the answer for me.
I seem to see the relationship of "trying to help out/fix a problem" with my SO and myself, that sometimes his suggestions do not work well for me, and it is me who has to come to terms with things, or it is me that has to do the well suggested things, my SO can not do that--- I get that so clearly with him and myself --- I just need to apply that more with my brother- not let the lines blur and get so merky it is the SAME Concept.

And on another thing- I think why the last two phone calls have been 5-10 minutes with my brother leaving the conversation, partially is due to I am not participating in his bad ways of abusing me emotionally and manipulating me, I have been strong with talking to him on the phone and it being about him in the sense and supporting him getting to therapy, I just fall apart by myself after the call, it seems.

Yeah- the other siblings in my family--- pfft. Only the older sister #4 I think is not so toxic (i think she has a lot of stuff together) and has things going for her-- She is good with not falling back in pits.... but the others-- they would just play in the dysfunction and damage more.

I have been thinking more on what RosePanachee mentioned too about suffering- I hate to admit it- but yes.. I hate to admit it due to suffering i see as "victim" and I don't like that view on myself-- i like to think myself as strong, and it is hard to think of victims as strong for me.. I hate to admit that I allow this as well.. But with that realization has lifted a lot off of my shoulders with this as well. Seeing this has reminded me, don't allowed to be pushed around again if this comes up...
I wrote down the other day on my sheet-- Caring Does Not Mean Suffering... For some reason physically writing it down, re-reading it to myself, just had some clarification come through.. made me feel stronger in an odd way.

Been thinking more on it is not my guilt to hold as well--
it is not my doing if they do something, and i have no control over what they do.

I know this will be a process thing for me and I think i will write down some things and keep it some where for the rainy day when or if this hits again.

I just need to remember all of this-- keep it in mind-- which probably wont happen due to I will have so much emotion, but if i write it down and place it some where- where i wont lose it, and i can read on the rainy day--- maybe it will help not to get so swampt back down in it all again.


aw but on the lighter side-- I wish i had loads of moneys send everyone i know that needs help to go get it (lol)

(thank you all) sorry this is so darn long.

and as I sat here knitting for a moment I thought about what I just mentioned about suffering-- I need to find another out look on it- been so much (all my life) of suffering means victim but with that I have said in twisted way- suffering makes me stronger in some cases-- Which that is NOT the case and totally illogical just to say suffering is victim. And I am sorry-- that is a working progress thinking that needs to change.

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

(((beauflow))),

You have to remember that these things you are learning now are "healthier ways of thinking" and your disfunctional family never taught you that. We tend to fall back on being a victim because it is what we know, kind of like auto pilot sometimes. For a while we have to actually stop and think and remember that auto pilot only brought us to misery and guilt that should have never been ours to begin with.

From what you have discribed, your brother is VERY toxic to a point where he is dangerous. He has somehow learned to gain attention from putting out some very "bad" behaviors. There is NO way you are qualified to "treat this problem" and what you now need to do is learn to "not" allow him to make "any" gains when he continues this "toxic" behavior pattern around you.

This whole thing with the phone call and then not calling you back, he is trying to punish you, make you suffer and worry. You need to just come out and say, "dont call me anymore, I am done". Because what he is doing to you when he does that is he is trying to pull you down with him. He is in such self pitty that he wants others to go down with him in his drowning.

Honestly?, I understand even more about why you started the thread about the Colorado Theater Killings. You see this potential in your brother and it is a very REAL concern of yours and so far, "no one is listening to you on this". But this can very well happen because when someone doesn't get help, needs attention somehow, they get so bad that ANY attention is better than NO attention at all. And this is exactly what they do, THEY TAKE OTHERS DOWN WITH THEM. And then they finally gain attention, EVEN IF IT IS BAD ATTENTION. We know this when we watch children who don't learn to gain attention the right way and end up being bullies and creating some kind of bad just to gain much needed attention.

I wondered about this while looking at this young man in his court appearance. He is placid and somewhat dazed but he finally got the attention now didn't he? And you see this potential in your brother as well. No one is listening are they? You talked to the hospital too, yet they didn't listen. I am not surprised that this incident in Colorado is triggering you.

I am wondering if you should go to the police and talk to them even about how you feel. I don't know where else you could got for this to be honest. I think you have a genuine concern beauflow.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes

((Open eyes))--

The sad part is yes.

i hate to say that i see the potential of him doing something bad-- hate to say it due to I see good- but as Rose76 in the other thread mentioned as many others echo as well is that people can be both of these things and it comes down to choices.

The thing with telling the cops- i don't even know where my brother lives (aint that great!)- he has been great with keeping that from me- he will up and leave a place as well-
As well as i have no real ground evidence-- just my experiences and my feelings and thoughts-- they can not go investigate someone with my past experiences with my brother with out him doing something (and actually I can double check that with a sate officer that i know, but I am pretty sure that unless he does something in the now, they can not just go and investigate him off of my emotions and thoughts)- and I by no means want to instigate something like that to where the cops are needed to be called; as I look back on my past I should had called when we lived together with him being violent but I did not due to fear-- i just left with saying he needs to help himself-- i wish i would had just stayed away. but I need to stop going back to that, I did not, and I need to do what I need to do in the now and learn from that past and not repeat it again.

And calling the cops-I guess this last time in the hospital is due to his GF called the cops on him, and he went to the hospital and they let him out again. I really don't get it. Is the economy that bad where people can not be held and get help-- see that is one thing- how many times- I asked that in the Dr. Clyde section, and It has not been answered, i tried to look it up in google too but not finding anything with a law of so many attempts and they mandate treatment.

I do agree-- him not calling me back he knows hurts me-- so ya know- I am back where I was about a month ago- i don't need to answer his calls if he is not going to respect me back.

His Friend replied back to me today-- She (the wife of couple) is emotionally distraught as I read her email--- She is like me, she wishes for him to get help-- I just wrote back and email that laid it all out--right now I am to the point of I don't care if they disconnect with me-- I know she means well but she basically asked me to do something so I laid it out to her- even though in 2008 i needed my own help and still do, even back then i told him that we both needed help-- then on to 2010 when i would see him in jail, and then 2011 when he admitted he needed help, and now-- I realized while typing it all up-- 4 years and it is just becoming stronger with get help...

I pointed out to his friend that he has used that bad behavior on them right now that he at times uses on me that is lighter side of things but still bad-- She writes that they called him to check up on him due to being worried, and when he asked if he could stay with them and she said no he could not, he went off with that no one cares about him, and that they don't care about him, and just a guilt a trip... he knows that they care and he can play that to his advantage- I don't see the husband (also his friend) taking this too lightly... the husband can be more forth right and say what he thinks to my brother even though they are friends and they get into it through out the years... But I laid out all that I did- I mentioned in 2008 that I know I needed my own help (still do as I mentioned as well) but the thing is that i shared all that i was doing with my brother and it still is not a path that he wants to take.

ya know, I don't hope the worse with my brother, I really don't--- as always- i am done with this struggle. but i rather him go back to jail for some thing petty than something horrible...

Sister#4 and PC Friends like Open Eyes and both Roses (Panachee and 76) have mentioned the one big ting-- I have engulfed myself in this... It is almost like Einstein's saying on insanity
i chuckle in a sad but also like in a "you fool" way , when i read that-- not a bad fool way, but that in away it is that (insanity) and in a way it is like "hell" -- Repetition is hell (ever read Dante's Inferno? -- repetition is one of the things that a group sinners are doing is where i get that from)... I see this chuckle as a good sign-- it means i am done- the chuckle is stress reliever of all this crap-- think it is a good thing to recognize for me.

As I mentioned with my SO letter and saying sorry- I have been thinking on that more-- even though I have again fallen with it all--- this time around I am more at ease with the decision due to it is like finally -- I think I did get this "through my head" it sounds harsh but I am not sure how else to explain that.. as well as I had a dream last weekend-- I know that may sound silly but when I have impacting dreams of the sort that are hand in hand with my life struggles that are going on-- usually it is in a way my brain also going with it-- it is hard for me to explain.

big deep breath in-- and let the exhale of this be of the bad energy from this... to be honest with my brohter not calling me yesterday and just his friends-- I think says a lot there-- He knows I wont let him stay with me any more (SO Wont Allow it any ways) and he did not even call to beat me up to make him feel better after he tried it with his friends... I feel bad that he is now doing this to his one last good true friends though. I don't wish this pain on any one.

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

oh and I have been thinking-- what was i really asking on this thread..

I know i myself was confused, i think it was guilt and no so much suicide attempts.-- a difference with guilt... Only I can answer that and yes there was a difference of guilt but similarities as well--

I had guilt with my friend's suicide as in -- if i stuck around maybe he would still be here..... I know that is illogical to think, and after years (this year I did a lot better) but accepting that he had issues and that I could not save him or fix his issues....

The guilt with my mom and brother with this all--- all is so much deeper and twisted with what was mentioned in the PTSD and Open Eyes mentions here-- partially changing old habits, learning new ways and with the others putting things on that should not be...

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s

Attempting suicide is an action. It's one thing to feel/think about suicide, express that feeling, attempt to get help for it, etc. but another to try to "cope" with life by attempting to kill yourself. That's not coping.

One feels what one feels. If one feels guilty or "proud" of attempting suicide, that is part of the individuals response. I believe most people feel guilty, guilt is a feeling of "gee, I shouldn't/wish I hadn't done that". Some people might feel guilty because they wish they had succeeded with suicide, feel like a "failure" for trying and not succeeding. The feelings are real but the thoughts behind them are not "true". Generally other people don't wish one were dead/not there, generally the world would not be better if that person were dead/not there, etc. Trying to hurt one's self and not being able to, is not a "failure" in the sense of failure being a bad thing.

May you be free from the torment and suffering.
May you no longer be baited by manipulative people.

Hi beau

I'm really sorry you're going through all of this, and I just wanted to say a few words to you, given what I have been reading on this thread.

Firstly, the suicide of your friend is in no way your fault. The only person who can accept responsibility for that decision is the person who made it. And they did make that decision. No amount of guilt on your part can disallow it or cancel it out.

As mad as it sounds, I think sometimes the guilt helps us hide from the anger, but we have to deal with that eventually. It's a fierce, terrible and righteous anger, because the real victims of suicide are those who are left behind.

Going on from that, I agree with what someone else said about getting some emotional distance between yourself and your family. You've already said yourself several times that you can't do it for them, and you're exactly right. You need to look after yourself first and foremost before anyone else.

There was more to this post, but it was very triggery and I don't think the language is nuanced enough to express it.

((Thank you everyone again and new posts from Perna, HappieDaisy and Charlie J))

First- his friend apologized for the should be's-- they were not sure if I knew, and yeh emotionally distraught- After I wrote back laying it all down-- they now see understanding from me, and the thing is -- as I had pointed out he was doing the same thing to them, they let me know that we are all still "family" (they are friends not blood but they care) but that basically this was the last using from my brother from them until he changes some things, and if he does not- he chooses then to be out of their life---- I can agree..

I have still been having a lot of ups and downs with this-- the raging guilt on my side has gotten tamed down-- Open Eyes mentioned in another thread that with me believing that I can not control others, she in good intentions I believe was trying to say that it wont make this easier or the pain-- I think I get what Open Eyes is saying-
So it brings me back to what My sister (#4) suggested that I tell him how he makes me feel when he does what he does to me, to see if he cares-- I struggled with that for a week due to it is a good suggestion but I already knew the answer and was fighting with myself with it-- I have in the past already told him with what he does on how it makes me feel, and what he is doing, and that is one wall punched close to the face result.

I will still have pain with this no doubt with whatever happens but to lessen my pain a little perhaps-- I did just now write my brother an email, expressing some of my feelings but yet at the same time not allowing it to be amo to be used against me. It was not a nasty email, not even an email of this is what you do to us (the people that care)

-- but an email to tell him that we that tell him to stop using drugs/alcohol and other bad coping skills to cope, to go to therapy are people that care and don't like to see him that way and we are not therapists and not psychologist and cannot provide the help that is needed for him to be better and it is not to be mean or an attack to him if that is what he feels it is- it is due to we really think it could help him with not suffering as he is, which we do not like to see him suffer like he is right now-- it was rather long due to I went into also that he needs to care about himself, others care- but that main point along with my thoughts on suicide and I attached a link that I have used myself, that comes down to coping skills -- wanting to commit suicide is by means to get out of the pain and suffering that we are in and it comes down to gaining better coping skills for ourselves-- I also told him- I can suggest things to one, but it takes one to do those things themselves-- and just left it to that-- a generalization --no you in that.

It is ok if he does not reply back to email, with the content of the email it is ok if he throws back some stuff to me that may hurt, the reason for me email is the final time to "speak" in a written text, which is what I do best, SOME* of my feelings on this matter and that I hope him the best and I think he could be so much more and I think better coping skills can help him with that but I do not have the skills for him to do that for himself.

in away i do feel a lifted weight off of me right now-- i have spoke what I needed to-- it is the final words, if he goes and gets help and better himself, well- we will cross that bridge when we come to that-- if he continues in the path that he is- I am where I stand today- he can choose to be in my life, with respecting others and trying things to better himself, or he can continue in disrespect and we don't need to know each other.

He already knows that I did this to our mother, father and two other brothers-- and that I keep very distant from our sisters.

I know that some may read this and think I am stupid for trying one last time to him, but it is my final time- it is- it is my promise to myself- I am tired of suffering that I go through with this from him, the abusive ways, and his violent anger at times to get what he wants or to feel better.

I have seen many sides to this man, i truly have-- and I know-- every person has good and bad sides and it is every persons choice to choose which they want to do--

I am sorry this has been a long battle for me-- and I am done with the battle, and it is out of my control of what I can do due to I have done what is in my range of doing which has been suggesting, sharing, and encouraging for a better life.

thanks all who have helped me with getting this out, wishing me well on it and just letting me talk about it- I do appreciate it and it has been helpful.

"A laugh is worth a hundred groans in any market." Charles Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da7StUzVh3s