*** Trigger Warning ****

There is a scene in the movie Les Miserables that has really touched me to the core, when the young Cosette sang "There is a Castle on a Cloud", because she was enslaved by bad people who treated her very badly, and forced her to do all the work in their hotel, and even to bring water from the woods alone at night. She created this imaginary place in her mind to escape from her reality. We all dream of a castle on a cloud where no one cries. Religions have created heavens for the same reason.

Victor Hugo, the writer of Les Miserables, said: "Those who don't weep don't see". This is very true. Suffering is timeless. It's eternal. It's continuous. The only true rest is death or non-existence. Anything other than that is just an anesthesia, a pain killer, an illusion.

[Skeezyks]

It's a beautiful scene, a beautiful song in the musical.

Here is the song from the musical

[acrobatfirst]

Originally Posted by Mr. Stranger

*** Trigger Warning ****

There is a scene in the movie Les Miserables that has really touched me to the core, when the young Cosette sang "There is a Castle on a Cloud", because she was enslaved by bad people who treated her very badly, and forced her to do all the work in their hotel, and even to bring water from the woods alone at night. She created this imaginary place in her mind to escape from her reality. We all dream of a castle on a cloud where no one cries. Religions have created heavens for the same reason.

Victor Hugo, the writer of Les Miserables, said: "Those who don't weep don't see". This is very true. Suffering is timeless. It's eternal. It's continuous. The only true rest is death or non-existence. Anything other than that is just an anesthesia, a pain killer, an illusion.

I read 3 times that novel from different publisher, what struck me each time is that Fantine sells her front teeth to send money Tenardies.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Les Miserable is my absolute favorite play and one of my favorite books as well!

What is interesting to me is that you identify with Cosette!
Honestly, I think she is the least interesting and least important character in the whole plot!
Yes, Jean Valjean ends up dedicating his life to her well being then Marius....and Fontaine and Ephanine both die while trying to ensure her well being...but NONE of it has ANYTHING to do with who she is as in her personality!! It's really truly not about her! And her character is the least well developed rounded out...sure she is nice and sweet and a poor little orphan and she's a good daughter to Valjean...but it is vapid! No complexity at all! She is very young when Valjean takes over her care..and then forward to her in Paris as a young adult..she is kind but completely self absorbed, entitled, and well shallow. Her only real redeeming quality is her sincere devoted gratitude for Valjean, but even that is not truly devoted. Nope, she would have run away with Marcus and left Valjean behind if Marius had not gotten shot or had walked away from the revolution..nope not even in the end..if you remember correctly she holds a grudge against him!! yes I know that Valjean swore Marius to secrecy...but she BELIEVES THAT CRAP?! And thinks She is Entitled to hold a Grudge??!! She hasn't been to see Valjean in years! She doesn't even make accommodations or a thought or care to whether or not he is at her wedding! She goes to see Valjean when he is dying not because she wants to or even asks for him!! Nope!..The only reason that simple-minded self absorbed entitled Cossette reunites with her "father" is because of Valjean and Marius!

The entire score is beautiful and emotional. I have seen it in multiple cities countries and casts....I was actually in a production of Les Mis when I was a child...I cry my eyes out from the second the overture starts up...but I never understood the big fuss about Cosette...it took me years to understand! Infuriated me drove me nuts! And I test off the charts in reasoning skills and reading comprehension!!..but it took becoming a mother myself..to realize the truth..stupidly plain as day! I feel like a moron that I missed it! It's Not About Her! It's about Fontaine and Valjean...Her unwavering uncompromising unconditional love and devotion to her child...and Valjean's moral compass...Which was always on par..he faltered for a moment but was reminded of his true nature and committed to his path by the priest who let him stay for the night...and when he found and cared for Fontaine he saw her soul in her eyes and the best version of himself reflected back. And he became the image of true good and selflessness her saw in her.
FIN.
~Scarlett

Originally Posted by Lost_in_the_woods

Les Miserable is my absolute favorite play and one of my favorite books as well!

What is interesting to me is that you identify with Cosette!
Honestly, I think she is the least interesting and least important character in the whole plot!
Yes, Jean Valjean ends up dedicating his life to her well being then Marius....and Fontaine and Ephanine both die while trying to ensure her well being...but NONE of it has ANYTHING to do with who she is as in her personality!! It's really truly not about her! And her character is the least well developed rounded out...sure she is nice and sweet and a poor little orphan and she's a good daughter to Valjean...but it is vapid! No complexity at all! She is very young when Valjean takes over her care..and then forward to her in Paris as a young adult..she is kind but completely self absorbed, entitled, and well shallow. Her only real redeeming quality is her sincere devoted gratitude for Valjean, but even that is not truly devoted. Nope, she would have run away with Marcus and left Valjean behind if Marius had not gotten shot or had walked away from the revolution..nope not even in the end..if you remember correctly she holds a grudge against him!! yes I know that Valjean swore Marius to secrecy...but she BELIEVES THAT CRAP?! And thinks She is Entitled to hold a Grudge??!! She hasn't been to see Valjean in years! She doesn't even make accommodations or a thought or care to whether or not he is at her wedding! She goes to see Valjean when he is dying not because she wants to or even asks for him!! Nope!..The only reason that simple-minded self absorbed entitled Cossette reunites with her "father" is because of Valjean and Marius!

The entire score is beautiful and emotional. I have seen it in multiple cities countries and casts....I was actually in a production of Les Mis when I was a child...I cry my eyes out from the second the overture starts up...but I never understood the big fuss about Cosette...it took me years to understand! Infuriated me drove me nuts! And I test off the charts in reasoning skills and reading comprehension!!..but it took becoming a mother myself..to realize the truth..stupidly plain as day! I feel like a moron that I missed it! It's Not About Her! It's about Fontaine and Valjean...Her unwavering uncompromising unconditional love and devotion to her child...and Valjean's moral compass...Which was always on par..he faltered for a moment but was reminded of his true nature and committed to his path by the priest who let him stay for the night...and when he found and cared for Fontaine he saw her soul in her eyes and the best version of himself reflected back. And he became the image of true good and selflessness her saw in her.
FIN.
~Scarlett

That's interesting, I had not thought of it like that, but tbh I haven't read the novel, only the musical, so may have missed the finer points.

I always saw Cosette as the innocent, and she is Valjean's chance for redemption - he literally cossets her.

@Lost_in_the_woods: Thanks for your input. I agree with you about the older Cosette, but the younger Cosette was the icon of suffering as a child. I don't think I was identifying with her, I was just trying to make a point how her misery made her to create an imaginary place that represents all she wished to have and see: no sweeping, no cries, love ... etc. The whole novel is built around misery. Sure Valjean and Fontaine sacrificed for Cosette which shows love, but also shows misery. Valjean from the beginning was in pain and crying because he was imprisoned for 19 years for stealing a loaf of bread because his niece/nephew was starving, which shows the cruelty of the law and humans. Probably one of the most loving scenes in the musical for me was when the Bishop redeemed Valjean and gave him a new beginning. I think this is love, because he knew him just for only one night. He (the Bishop) understood the humanity suffering. This incident was the changing point for Valjean. He couldn't believe because all he experienced was cruelty, and all he learned was "eye for an eye".

[Lost_in_the_woods]

He stole a loaf of bread to feed his niece.

There are many themes.
Each character serves as a totem for a theme or part of a theme.
Young Cosette is "the cinderalla" of the story. On the surface literally...but underlying she serves as the personification of the pre-revolutionary dream of a democratic France.
When we meet her again as a young adult she embodies the duality of the outcome of the Revolution. She retains her innocence and purity of the dream...hence Marius' instant devotion to her..as he sees the cause take form in her vision. Contrariwise, her ignorance, beauty, self serving oblivious childish nature is a caricature of Marie Antonnete...who's gruesome death was not truly deserved...necessary perhaps but in no way was she the cruel uncaring monster history has made her out to be..no she was just an ignorant child. She was not even French. If you want to discuss a woman truly enslaved from birth!!
I could go on about the many classist themes..Victor Hugo had a very humanistic progress POV..but that is a discussion for another time.

Valjean and Javier
Great Match up!
So much complexity between these adversaries!
The whole existential journey of the human soul...I could write a full dissertation.
But for the sake of everyone's sanity...
I will nutshell instead...
Long and short..Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Hierachy.... a running theme woven into the whole thru all the characters indivually each serves as a developmental stage..but the process and inner battle is played out between these two amazing characters.
Simply astonishing
Valjean actually goes through all six stages of development as we follow his journey through the plot. Javier serves as the great societal debate sparked by Kohlberg's Theory. In the end he can not come to terms with having abandoned his own moral principles in his obsessive pursuit of Valjean and when he comes to the epiphany that Valjean may actually be more moral then himself...His inability to resign to either of these truths drives him to take him literally over the edge! (Horrible pun..I know)

I could go on forever with my many thoughts on the novel/Operetta. ..but once again for the sake of everyone's sanity...

On a lighter note...Mon.&Madame Thenardier..a wonderful little nod to the genius of Shakespeare

P.S. Sorry Dicken's! Tale of Two Cities ain't got nothin' imagerywise when compared to Hugo's Masterpiece! ;P

For Scarlett,
Love, Victoria

[JustJace2u]

Les Miserables is one of my favorites.

Originally Posted by Lost_in_the_woods

He stole a loaf of bread to feed his niece.

There are many themes.
Each character serves as a totem for a theme or part of a theme.
Young Cosette is "the cinderalla" of the story. On the surface literally...but underlying she serves as the personification of the pre-revolutionary dream of a democratic France.
When we meet her again as a young adult she embodies the duality of the outcome of the Revolution. She retains her innocence and purity of the dream...hence Marius' instant devotion to her..as he sees the cause take form in her vision. Contrariwise, her ignorance, beauty, self serving oblivious childish nature is a caricature of Marie Antonnete...who's gruesome death was not truly deserved...necessary perhaps but in no way was she the cruel uncaring monster history has made her out to be..no she was just an ignorant child. She was not even French. If you want to discuss a woman truly enslaved from birth!!
I could go on about the many classist themes..Victor Hugo had a very humanistic progress POV..but that is a discussion for another time.

Valjean and Javier
Great Match up!
So much complexity between these adversaries!
The whole existential journey of the human soul...I could write a full dissertation.
But for the sake of everyone's sanity...
I will nutshell instead...
Long and short..Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Hierachy.... a running theme woven into the whole thru all the characters indivually each serves as a developmental stage..but the process and inner battle is played out between these two amazing characters.
Simply astonishing
Valjean actually goes through all six stages of development as we follow his journey through the plot. Javier serves as the great societal debate sparked by Kohlberg's Theory. In the end he can not come to terms with having abandoned his own moral principles in his obsessive pursuit of Valjean and when he comes to the epiphany that Valjean may actually be more moral then himself...His inability to resign to either of these truths drives him to take him literally over the edge! (Horrible pun..I know)

I could go on forever with my many thoughts on the novel/Operetta. ..but once again for the sake of everyone's sanity...

On a lighter note...Mon.&Madame Thenardier..a wonderful little nod to the genius of Shakespeare

P.S. Sorry Dicken's! Tale of Two Cities ain't got nothin' imagerywise when compared to Hugo's Masterpiece! ;P

For Scarlett,
Love, Victoria

I mentioned niece/nephew because I only watched the movie, and in the movie Valjean said "my sister's child was starving to death", so, it wasn't clear to me. Also, I didn't say Cosette's childhood was the only enslavement!! Again I was making a point, and the scene came to my mind as a good example how suffering dominates our lives and make us wish things were different.

Anyway, thanks for the elaboration. Admittedly, I haven't read the novel, and I haven't explored Hugo's view of life. My subjective view of the movie, however, is that misery is the central theme (well, the novel's title is Les Misérables). The revolution and the political and social struggles are ways to lessen the suffering and misery, not eliminating it. I'm not sure if we can do better. I read once an article to a philosopher who said it's an obligation to end humanity by stop procreating. At first I was interested in this view, but then I realized it isn't realistic. We are animals after all, and procreation is programmed in our genes. We've evolved exactly to procreate. We are just vehicles to our genes. So, we are in a way stuck in life.

But it seems to me that people don't acknowledge the fact that life is full of misery. They tend to forget in a moment of joy maybe. Or they are good in numbing their emotions with regard to this. Suffering is inevitable, but we bring children to give our suffering a meaning, which in turn makes them suffer. As I said, we are stuck. Sure materialistic things make life easier, but our societies have transformed us into robots and machines to produce wealth. Relationships are just mutual interests. People don't have intrinsic values in themselves. No wonder why Christianity has attracted many people. It offers the missing (but much needed) love in humans in a higher divine character. Regardless if He's imaginary or not, the idea has comforted people to know that they are loved. It comforted me when I was in pain and believed. All I read now is how to become fit in a flawed society. How to become more productive, or more sociable, but rarely any one teaches us how to be a humans how to understand, how to listen, how to empathize. How to be in touch with the angelic part of our nature. Maybe because it's something unteachable, I don't know. Maybe suffering is the key to be a human by seeing others suffering through our own suffering, but again most humans deny life's suffering in the first place.

This is my view, and I tend to see everything with respect to it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Stranger

I mentioned niece/nephew because I only watched the movie, and in the movie Valjean said "my sister's child was starving to death", so, it wasn't clear to me. Also, I didn't say Cosette's childhood was the only enslavement!! Again I was making a point, and the scene came to my mind as a good example how suffering dominates our lives and make us wish things were different.

Anyway, thanks for the elaboration. Admittedly, I haven't read the novel, and I haven't explored Hugo's view of life. My subjective view of the movie, however, is that misery is the central theme (well, the novel's title is Les Misérables). The revolution and the political and social struggles are ways to lessen the suffering and misery, not eliminating it. I'm not sure if we can do better. I read once an article to a philosopher who said it's an obligation to end humanity by stop procreating. At first I was interested in this view, but then I realized it isn't realistic. We are animals after all, and procreation is programmed in our genes. We've evolved exactly to procreate. We are just vehicles to our genes. So, we are in a way stuck in life.

But it seems to me that people don't acknowledge the fact that life is full of misery. They tend to forget in a moment of joy maybe. Or they are good in numbing their emotions with regard to this. Suffering is inevitable, but we bring children to give our suffering a meaning, which in turn makes them suffer. As I said, we are stuck. Sure materialistic things make life easier, but our societies have transformed us into robots and machines to produce wealth. Relationships are just mutual interests. People don't have intrinsic values in themselves. No wonder why Christianity has attracted many people. It offers the missing (but much needed love) in humans in a higher divine character. Regardless if He's imaginary or not, the idea has comforted people to know that they are loved. It comforted me when I was in pain and believed. All I read now is how to become fit in a flawed society. How to become more productive, or more sociable, but rarely any one teaches us how to be a humans how to understand, how to listen, how to empathize. How to be in touch with the angel part of our nature. Maybe because it's something unteachable, I don't know. Maybe suffering is the key to be a human by seeing others suffering through our own suffering, but again most humans deny life's suffering in the first place.

This is my view, and I tend to see everything with respect to it.

Forgive me, I know this was a reply to LitW but I wanted to respond to your very well made point about misery and suffering - the Quakers original belief was that it was through suffering that God was found 'within'. I certainly believe suffering is a part of developing awareness in life - it is connected to empathy.

I am not here to convince you to become a Quaker or indeed any religion but wanted to add that there are so many different belief systems - some of which do not even include 'God' in the traditional sense. So much to think about. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Kuhlberg's Theory is a Moral hierarchy based on life developmental stages. By adulthood most people reach the Societal Moral development of Jurisprudence. The last 2 stages are a sense of Morality that are for the betterment of mankind and or loved ones regardless of whether or not they are with in the bounds of the law... Kuhlberg's Theory is not about who is better or righteous...it is about when and how throughout our lives we develop our personal values and the steps we take to learn to live them as well... sorry if it came off as an argument. That it was not just expanding on what you posted before. It truly is an amazing story in any format.

Originally Posted by prefabsprout

Forgive me, I know this was a reply to LitW but I wanted to respond to your very well made point about misery and suffering - the Quakers original belief was that it was through suffering that God was found 'within'. I certainly believe suffering is a part of developing awareness in life - it is connected to empathy.

I am not here to convince you to become a Quaker or indeed any religion but wanted to add that there are so many different belief systems - some of which do not even include 'God' in the traditional sense. So much to think about. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I know there are many belief systems, but I think Christianity is very distinct among them. Love is central to Christianity. Crucifixion is central to Christianity. I'm not here to preach about Christianity (I don't consider myself Christian anymore because knowing certain things could change your belief with no return), but in Christianity you don't only find God, but also experience the Divine love in a Person if you believe.

Empathy is connected with suffering. No doubt about that. But it also depends on how we view suffering. Some view it in a way only to get more money. In a way to avoid it and numb all the feelings.

You are welcome to post anytime.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Life is full of suffering. Les Miserables does indeed mean quite literally translated The Miserable Ones. But the story is not really about suffering, although each character does suffer. It is about the beauty found within the soul's journey through the inevitable trials and tribulations of life.
After all what else is a revolution but the suffering and sacrifice of a few for the joy and freedom of many.
Where does this beauty lay? It lays within the peace of a soul who lives it's Core Values and Truths every day. It lays within the recognition of the embodiment of another joyful soul. And it becomes fully whole in all of its beauty at the journey's end. Happiness is not merely superficial. That is happiness lite. Instant gratification is the most infantile stage of Moral development...unfortunately in today's everything and anything at your fingertips world...it does appear that Moral development of many has been severely stunted...
But while that kind of happiness may fill your immediate loneliness...it can not fulfill the deeper emptiness of the soul..
"When the beating of the drum, matches the beating of your heart, there is a life about to come when tomorrow starts!"