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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 09:31 AM
  #1
Hi,

I have a pattern to something I do.

I'm not a kid anymore. I'm a husband and dad and am approaching middle age. I work with people a lot, and have a lot of successful professional relationships. I have people that have been in my life as friends for a long time.

My blood family really didn't look after me emotionally. I didn't realize until recently that I was not emotionally cared for. I went through family traumas and losses and no one ever talked or coached me through it. My blood family are good people but two things are true: they find excuses to be emotionally distant, and they never apologize.

This, I think, has left me emotionally immature. I seek immediate emotional validation and gratification from my wife and other people close to me. If I am slighted, I will speak up pretty quickly. I will point out the hurt and expect an apology. Honestly, my wife is similar in that she doesn't like to apologize. I end up acting like a petty fool, pointing out, and re-pointing out, and repointing out the slight or wrong, and expecting an apology.

The lack of validation makes me feel like I'm crazy. Then I end up saying "I'm not crazy!" Which really makes a person look crazy.

Right now I am posting this because I am trying to not confront my wife about something and this is my coping system for today.

Can anyone coach me on this one?

RDM
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 01:39 PM
  #2
Just wanted to give you kudos for seeing a pattern and trying to break it. I’ve no ideas tho.

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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 02:21 PM
  #3
HAHAHA!

Talked to an old friend about this today.

His take was, you're human. You're carrying a lot for a long time. Of course you're getting short tempered.

Maybe more self care to take the edge off???
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 02:38 PM
  #4
i don't think you're crazy. i agree with the wise and wonderful Nammu about giving you kudos to recognizing this pattern of yours though. i am also not sure how to cope with it. Perhaps working on your self-esteem may be a good way to start. Are you currently seeking a therapist? Perhaps that may Help as well. Eeveryone has certain things or patterns that we have inherited so i don't think there's nothing to be ashamed of if we can recognize it and at least try to break off from it. Please do keep us updated if you can and want to. Stay Safe. Sending many safe, warm hugs to BOTH you, @RDMercer, your Family, your Friends and ALL of your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 03:22 PM
  #5
I agree with the view that you are human. Please note though, I've omitted the word "only". Emotions should not be brushed aside.

Yes, there can be groups of people who display the same ones. Those feelings can be conditioned by something lacking in their lives, or developed with positive guidance (parental/relatives/mentors).

I'm in a similar situation, where a family incident has triggered moral issues. What I feel is great disappointment that the person responsible has not/will not apologise. Have other family members offered any sound advice/help, No! In my mother's view, I should apologise instead. The easy way out and not showing the perpetrator that they've behaved in an unacceptable way. This behaviour can most likely be traced back to how she was treated by her parents. I'm totally different emotionally to most family members, another problem area.

The most likely time for these emotions to surface is middle age. We've taken on new responsibilities (partner/children/elderly parents), juggling demands of a career. The flaws in our upbringing surface as we mature, then it's our choice how we act on them. I don't think you're being immature, you are expecting others to have your moral compass. It can be hurtful when you realise that's not going to happen.
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 07:22 PM
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
HAHAHA!

Talked to an old friend about this today.

His take was, you're human. You're carrying a lot for a long time. Of course you're getting short tempered.

Maybe more self care to take the edge off???

Firstoff. Specifically what burden are you carrying? And why?




Quote:
This, I think, has left me emotionally immature. I seek immediate emotional validation and gratification from my wife and other people close to me. If I am slighted, I will speak up pretty quickly. I will point out the hurt and expect an apology. Honestly, my wife is similar in that she doesn't like to apologize. I end up acting like a petty fool, pointing out, and re-pointing out, and repointing out the slight or wrong, and expecting an apology.

The lack of validation makes me feel like I'm crazy. Then I end up saying "I'm not crazy!" Which really makes a person look crazy.

Right now I am posting this because I am trying to not confront my wife about something and this is my coping system for today.

Can anyone coach me on this one?

RDM

Do you have an example of such slights you expect an apology about? For example, what was the slight you tried to not confront your wife about now?

Specifics help.
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 09:08 PM
  #7
Poshgirl, I'm sorry for what you're carrying. Truly sorry.

My wife has had a chronic long term (years) illness. I've been the sole income earner for a long time, and take on more than half the parenting and household chores.
She went through surgery last month, and one of our kids, and they are both recuperating. Kid had bern sore for a year with multiple ER trips. I took him to all of them.

Wife's friend lost her husband, so I've helped with that home and yard as well. Elderly family members need support, and they have no one else nearby within 60 minutes, so I've picked up some responsibilities there.

I didn't think I had too much on my plate until I wrote that out just now. That looks like a lot.

My blood family.... One parent had health issues and was an alcoholic. I didn't accept I was GIVEN, a lot of responsibility by the other parent. Despite traumas, losses, whatever, I met my family responsibilities and passed everything in school. I worked the whole time, since middle school.

I'm good at NOT talking about my emotions.

I also have always felt like other people's emotions and needs were more important, and that I had to fight to be heard.

So for the last month or so here, I've been a d.ck. If my wife says, "I need some support," I'm replying, "Why do you always find fault? Why can't you give me some credit for all I'm doing?"

I don't want to be like that.
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Default Jun 14, 2021 at 11:41 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
Poshgirl, I'm sorry for what you're carrying. Truly sorry.

My wife has had a chronic long term (years) illness. I've been the sole income earner for a long time, and take on more than half the parenting and household chores.
She went through surgery last month, and one of our kids, and they are both recuperating. Kid had bern sore for a year with multiple ER trips. I took him to all of them.

Wife's friend lost her husband, so I've helped with that home and yard as well. Elderly family members need support, and they have no one else nearby within 60 minutes, so I've picked up some responsibilities there.

I didn't think I had too much on my plate until I wrote that out just now. That looks like a lot.

My blood family.... One parent had health issues and was an alcoholic. I didn't accept I was GIVEN, a lot of responsibility by the other parent. Despite traumas, losses, whatever, I met my family responsibilities and passed everything in school. I worked the whole time, since middle school.

Yes, that's a lot. How much time do you spend on your own hobbies, interests, passions, goals?



Quote:
I'm good at NOT talking about my emotions.
To be honest, I think some people should *not* force talking too much about their emotions. Some people are better off processing for themselves. Though, it's true too that everyone (except maybe schizoids) needs to express&share sometimes, even if not often.



Quote:
I also have always felt like other people's emotions and needs were more important, and that I had to fight to be heard.
If you take on responsibilities, duties so easily and you are hell-bent on carrying them out always, then yes, that would be closely related to this issue. It kind of is about "spoiling" others, putting them fully in the focus/spotlight. It's a form of codependency even.



Quote:
So for the last month or so here, I've been a d.ck. If my wife says, "I need some support," I'm replying, "Why do you always find fault? Why can't you give me some credit for all I'm doing?"

I don't want to be like that.
OK, what I don't understand is, what in that sentence sounds/feels like to you like she is fault-finding? "I need some support" simply states the fact of needing some support. It does not state anything about how much support was given or not given previously, hence it cannot be a criticism in the factual sense.

Unless you mean she uses that kind of tone/expression....? But the sentence itself as quoted here does not contain any criticism.


However, I do understand that you want to feel like you are being given credit for what you've already done/are already doing.

And being overloaded by responsibilities, duties, is going to make you grumpy easily, that's normal, yeah. So then it is possible that you could see a critical tone where there is none. I'm not saying there isn't such a critical tone, I haven't seen the way your wife expressed her request for support. I don't even know specifically what kind of support she was asking for.

I'm just giving you this alternative possibility that it wasn't intended to be critical. It could be the wrong possibility though, and maybe it was actually a critical expression.


Also I think the overall context matters a lot when reading her sentence.

So for context: Does your wife often ask for your support? (Beyond the duties you are already performing by default.) Does she often express appreciation for it? Do you ever ask for her support? When you do ask for her support, does she readily give it?
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 04:28 AM
  #9
The example I gave was an actual recent exchange between her and I. She didn't find fault with me, just expressed a need.

She doesn't often recognize or say anything about how much I'm carrying or how many responsibilities I have. She's been sick a long time. She is fighting to maintain her self image as a contributor to the family and household. So, I haven't voiced much.

I have told her, I need some appreciation, positivity, verbal support since years. I haven't heard her say these things. She has told me, recognizing what I do forces her to see what she can't do.

What do I do for me? Not much. I like exercising so I workout at home 2-3 times a week.

I'm at a point where any level of fault finding towards me, and I'm ready to fight for acknowledgement. I will say, my blood family growing up never acknowledged all I did and how little support I got. They gloss over years of alcoholism in retelling stories. They preach the benefits of church and applying the AA lifestyle. I've said, so where is the searching moral inventory and apologies because I never got one. Silence. I'm "difficult" for saying these things in response. The righteousness is choking.

I alternately don't want any contact with them, or crave validation from them.

Yes... codependency... I've examined that before but it hasn't been at the front of my mind lately. Definitely present.

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful replies.
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 05:50 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
Poshgirl, I'm sorry for what you're carrying. Truly sorry.

My wife has had a chronic long term (years) illness. I've been the sole income earner for a long time, and take on more than half the parenting and household chores.
She went through surgery last month, and one of our kids, and they are both recuperating. Kid had bern sore for a year with multiple ER trips. I took him to all of them.

Wife's friend lost her husband, so I've helped with that home and yard as well. Elderly family members need support, and they have no one else nearby within 60 minutes, so I've picked up some responsibilities there.

I didn't think I had too much on my plate until I wrote that out just now. That looks like a lot.

My blood family.... One parent had health issues and was an alcoholic. I didn't accept I was GIVEN, a lot of responsibility by the other parent. Despite traumas, losses, whatever, I met my family responsibilities and passed everything in school. I worked the whole time, since middle school.

I'm good at NOT talking about my emotions.

I also have always felt like other people's emotions and needs were more important, and that I had to fight to be heard.

So for the last month or so here, I've been a d.ck. If my wife says, "I need some support," I'm replying, "Why do you always find fault? Why can't you give me some credit for all I'm doing?"

I don't want to be like that.
Thanks RDMercer, but your problems are far more serious than mine.

You have been there for your wife, children, elderly relatives, friends. Your plate is indeed full! Often we don't realise the extent of our commitments until writing them down. Can I be bold and say it is normal for men not to express emotion. Unless you are "wired" in a different way, this will always be an obstacle.

As a number of wise members of this forum recently said to me "you cannot change how an elderly person behaves (my mother's 86), if that behaviour has been their norm. In these situations, we do expect validation and the disappointment can be huge. Especially when you've committed so much time and energy into helping them, at the expense of your own wants and needs.

It's understandable to feel "used". Silence can be as bad as poor responses. You are not being a d**k, you're being human. This situation has stirred emotions probably because you are mentally tired. That can be worse than physical. Make some time for yourself like hobbies or just going for a walk. Write down more, it can release the tension you are feeling. Is there no one in your wife's family who can help?

There's a quote used by someone on this forum which is very true. Hope I can remember the exact words. "You cannot change something, but you can change how you deal with it".
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 06:59 AM
  #11
My wife is an immigrant. Not much family here, and none within a day of us.

My parents and brother have always had reasons they weren't available. "We'd love to help but we can't get away. We're tied here. Maybe sometime soon. We know you have a lot going on, but you should see how swamped we are here. Sorry you and the family can't travel due to illness, but we have a responsibility to the neighborhood Christmas party (2 years)."

I called in sick yesterday and today. Covid type symptoms means no one asks at work. This is my self care. I need to self monitor better.

Thanks Posh for the insight.

I've felt like I've been screaming for validation and getting none. I've accomplished a lot in my work in the past 10 years. I actually didn't see it. My oldest son began pointing this out to me this year, and my new boss. That felt good, but it also made me go, why the heck are my family not seeing this stuff in me? Why am I invisible? Why aren't my accomplishments celebrated?
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 09:43 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
The example I gave was an actual recent exchange between her and I. She didn't find fault with me, just expressed a need.

Oh OK I understand now, so you brought up your issues independently of what she said.

What kind of support was she asking for, btw?



Quote:
She doesn't often recognize or say anything about how much I'm carrying or how many responsibilities I have. She's been sick a long time. She is fighting to maintain her self image as a contributor to the family and household. So, I haven't voiced much.

I have told her, I need some appreciation, positivity, verbal support since years. I haven't heard her say these things. She has told me, recognizing what I do forces her to see what she can't do.

That's incredibly familiar to me, that situation, lol.

I don't know, but I played saviour, and it was a bad idea.

I still don't know where that went wrong, but I have this vague idea that it was overstepping boundaries and that I should've just simply given support and be there for the person but without doing too much.

My having success with things also made that person feel like your wife feels, "recognizing what I do forces her to see what she can't do".

It didn't help their self-esteem and in response they just got more negative towards me, I think. (That's obviously only my theory but it sorta makes sense)


Anyway back to your situation. Do you let your wife know that you do recognise her contributions? Whenever she is able to contribute whatever.



Quote:
I'm at a point where any level of fault finding towards me, and I'm ready to fight for acknowledgement. I will say, my blood family growing up never acknowledged all I did and how little support I got. They gloss over years of alcoholism in retelling stories. They preach the benefits of church and applying the AA lifestyle. I've said, so where is the searching moral inventory and apologies because I never got one. Silence. I'm "difficult" for saying these things in response. The righteousness is choking.

Yes, people aren't going to suddenly evaluate a lot of things in a flash without crashing under the load of negative emotions and risk decreasing their own self-esteem in the face of all that, and so they can't take responsibility on the spot as a result.


If someone genuinely wants to take responsibility, it's still gonna take a lot of time if the issue is complex.



Quote:
I alternately don't want any contact with them, or crave validation from them.

Yes... codependency... I've examined that before but it hasn't been at the front of my mind lately. Definitely present.

I think a therapist could help with this part.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
My parents and brother have always had reasons they weren't available. "We'd love to help but we can't get away. We're tied here. Maybe sometime soon. We know you have a lot going on, but you should see how swamped we are here. Sorry you and the family can't travel due to illness, but we have a responsibility to the neighborhood Christmas party (2 years)."

That's sad. Sorry, that's an understatement. But I feel for you.


It's sad that they consistently prioritise the neighbor's party instead of family.



Quote:
I've felt like I've been screaming for validation and getting none. I've accomplished a lot in my work in the past 10 years. I actually didn't see it. My oldest son began pointing this out to me this year, and my new boss. That felt good, but it also made me go, why the heck are my family not seeing this stuff in me? Why am I invisible? Why aren't my accomplishments celebrated?

Tbh I had that period about wanting validation so much and whatever emotional stuff, like that. But that was because I wasn't dealing with my own emotions because um, my brain isn't cut out for it hahaha. Well, to be serious, it's just a long process, a really long process to get more conscious of all the emotional stuff. Both inside yourself and around you (other people's and then the emotional stuff between you and other people as well). So now I'm trying to be like....be more refined in my understanding of all that and be less black and white about wanting "so much good validation" or whatever else. It's just, it doesn't work when it's that rigid an approach. I don't know how else to put it. It takes time to refine it all, and I can't say I've done it all and I don't aspire to be truly refined ever. But just, idk, be more with the flow emotionally and pick up more and have a more refined control over them. The result so far is that I've had some more fulfilling interactions without having to crave validation or crave whatever else. This process, it takes time, again. And I still don't feel heard about some stuff lol. That part is a mystery still but I know it's to do with the rigidity around it so I gonna just have to loosen up that part too

Maybe it would help you too, I don't know. But that's why I'm describing all this. I've done a lot of psychoeducation and some therapy too



Quote:
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful replies.

No problem, glad if I could help any.
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 09:55 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by poshgirl View Post
Can I be bold and say it is normal for men not to express emotion. Unless you are "wired" in a different way, this will always be an obstacle.

It's not an obstacle!! It's just how it is. It doesn't have to be a problem or an obstacle.

OK maybe I need to clarify that a bit more lol. So, I mean that yeah, it's normal for some people (usually men, some women too) to not express much emotion or not express certain emotions at least, stuff that other people express way more easily.

But that's not a disadvantage in most situations...emotion processing is just handled differently, is all. More privately and stuff.

The problem is only if you neglect to do the processing even in private and if you completely neglect any kind of expressing whatsoever, which for sure can happen when guys (or gals!! ) become workaholics and stuff like that.



Quote:
As a number of wise members of this forum recently said to me "you cannot change how an elderly person behaves (my mother's 86), if that behaviour has been their norm. In these situations, we do expect validation and the disappointment can be huge. Especially when you've committed so much time and energy into helping them, at the expense of your own wants and needs.
There is the problem......that ignores healthy boundaries. You shouldn't help anyone if it's at the expense of your own wants and needs. It's not healthy, it will not lead anywhere. I learned the hard way!!

To be clear, I don't mean to say to not be there for people in need, I'm not saying that at all. But it can't become some regular thing where you start to have this as an actual *lifestyle* and neglect your own needs and wants, and yes, neglect emotions.

Because you gotta neglect emotions if you want to keep going with only helping others, neglecting yourself, and if at the same time you want to avoid too much pain and suffering doing this unhealthy stuff....

There is a Childhood emotional neglect section somewhere on the forum, that sorta relates to this too. Though I don't work the way that that stuff assumes all people work like, it still provided me with some useful understanding.



Quote:
It's understandable to feel "used". Silence can be as bad as poor responses. You are not being a d**k, you're being human. This situation has stirred emotions probably because you are mentally tired. That can be worse than physical. Make some time for yourself like hobbies or just going for a walk. Write down more, it can release the tension you are feeling. Is there no one in your wife's family who can help?
Yeah!, make time for yourself is part of how you get out of the thing with overdoing the help and duties.
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 11:14 AM
  #14
Alive99, you've "hit so many nails on the head"!

For whatever reason, it's easy to just soak everything up like a sponge. Even sponges reach their limits. In my case, the wakening moment can be when you realise that the person saying thank you has an alternate agenda of emotional blackmail. The disappointment that the person who supposedly taught you right from wrong is now advocating an unacceptable resolution to a family problem.

RDMercer, I can relate to how your wife is feeling. Whether it's illness or old age, the inability to do tasks can lower self-esteem. That's where a lot of my mother's problems lie. Is there an opportunity for you to just sit with your wife for a chat? Subjects other than her illness or your wish for validation. Saying to lighten the mood may seem flippant but it could be a good starting point to address the more serious issues later.
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Default Jun 15, 2021 at 01:13 PM
  #15
We reached a point where together time was emotional support time to help her relax.

Bad to say it, but it became one more thing to do. It wasn't something for me.

On my birthday I watched a Marvel movie, ate an awesome burger, had a drink, and texted a bunch of old friends to remind them it was my birthday.

Awesome day! And so simple. But hard to negotiate those days regularly.
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Default Jun 16, 2021 at 01:28 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by poshgirl View Post
Alive99, you've "hit so many nails on the head"!

For whatever reason, it's easy to just soak everything up like a sponge. Even sponges reach their limits. In my case, the wakening moment can be when you realise that the person saying thank you has an alternate agenda of emotional blackmail. The disappointment that the person who supposedly taught you right from wrong is now advocating an unacceptable resolution to a family problem.

Glad if I could help with my post. Ohh this sponge analogy is so good too. With me it's a funny thing, I don't notice that I take up stuff like that.....but then the sponge becomes full and then it all has to come out.

I am trying to get more conscious of how that works to avoid that in future.

I also had similar wakening moments like that...realising that there's been emotional blackmail and the like. When it all came out of me, whatever I took in, is when I saw it. I can't even tell you if the chicken or the egg was first. (Sponge spilling out and then me seeing the problems vs seeing the bad that got the sponge full and that then made me spill it)


I'll continue the analogy. I have had to be careful to not let the full sponge spill over everywhere else, even where it doesn't belong. I didn't want to become paranoid or overly cynical or anything.

But yes, emotional blackmail and things like that do exist, too. It's all so complex. Yea sure humans are complex. lol.
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Default Jun 16, 2021 at 01:36 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by RDMercer View Post
We reached a point where together time was emotional support time to help her relax.

Bad to say it, but it became one more thing to do. It wasn't something for me.

That sounds concerning to me.


So I'm going to ask you very directly:


When you did this:

"I have told her, I need some appreciation, positivity, verbal support since years. I haven't heard her say these things."

What was her response?

Do you have a specific example of what she said or did in response, whenever you told her what you need like that?

Did she attempt to stir up drama in response?
Did she simply say nothing and ignored you completely?
Did she deflect and avoid/evade the topic?
Did she attempt to put blame on you, criticise you and your expressed need?
Did she get into a circular argument with you?

Or what did she do?
What does she typically do?

Also are you trying to say your wife stopped contributing anything whatsoever, then? So that you don't really have anything to acknowledge about her contributions (since they are nonexistent)?



Quote:
On my birthday I watched a Marvel movie, ate an awesome burger, had a drink, and texted a bunch of old friends to remind them it was my birthday.

Awesome day! And so simple. But hard to negotiate those days regularly.
That is cool that you've enjoyed your birthday.

Also. If you don't mind me asking: did your wife say or do anything for your birthday? Anything at all? I noticed you didn't mention her at all in this description.

I see your oldest son has started paying attention to you though. That's good news for now.
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