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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 06:26 PM
  #1
For my entire life, I've always relied on the cognitive emotional bias called "motivational reasoning," which means that I make justifications that suit my own opinions, rather than based on facts known or unknown based on evidence.

Basically, I make decisions based on my first emotional reaction. I know this is due to childhood trauma of having emotionally neglectful parents that caused me and my siblings to walk on eggshells, and hyper-react to our parents' emotional roller coaster parenting styles that conflicted with each other.

Obviously, the advice is: stop making decisions based on your emotional response. That's what Dialectical Behavioral Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy say in response to counter act "motivational reasoning" responses to life's events. And trust me, I've done DBT and CBT to no avail. I'm STUCK in emotional response mode, like my brain's reasoning computer chip is burnt out or wasn't installed properly, to use a weak analogy.

For example, today there was a package addressed to the previous tenant of my apt. in my building's lobby. So, instead of taking the package up to my apt. first, I chose to take photos of it with my phone. Then, I emailed the photos to the previous leasing company who owned the building, b/c I knew the previous tenant had stayed with that leasing company as a renter. So, they reached out to her and she emailed me.

We had planned for me to take her package up to my apt., where she could pick it up this weekend. Now here's where my motivational reasoning knocked that even keel scenario into chaos.

I went upstairs to use my bathroom. When I came back downstairs, the package was gone. INSTEAD of checking with the neighbor whose girlfriend watches the hallway like a hawk and takes in other tenant's packages for safe keeping, that she likes to have her boyfriend deliver to the tenant later - to see if she took it, I let my motivational reasoning take over.

I assumed someone had stolen it. So, I messaged the previous tenant "your package was stolen, sorry!" She responded "ok, thanks for trying." Then I contacted the leasing company who manages my apt. bldg and sent them the photos accusing the tenants in the bldg of stealing this previous tenant's package. Talk about jumping over a cliff of assumptions.

Then, 15 minutes later, common sense returned and I checked with the woman and her boyfriend to see if they had the package. They did. They gave it to me to hold on to for the previous tenant to pick up.

I had to back track and contact both leasing companies, and the previous tenant, and apologize for jumping to the conclusion that her package had been stolen by one of the tenant's in my bldg.; that I had it because another tenant grabbed it for safe keeping, and the previous tenant thanked me, and came and picked up her package.

I'm really upset that I still let my emotions control my responses. I know it's the reason people put up walls around themselves emotionally; to protect themselves from my "overpowering" energy. It's just frustrating to know that no matter what CBT or DBT I try, I can't change. It's just not possible. And it's the reason my life is the way it is.

Can anyone relate? At all?
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 07:00 PM
  #2
I can definitely relate! I struggle with the same difficulty.

What helps me are two things:

1] I try to put things into perspective. Emotional reasoning with bad outcomes forms a continuum, from least bad outcomes to worst outcomes. This continuum or range is quite wide.

At one end there is absolute perfection which is outside the reach of finite human beings. None of us are all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-free, all-perfect Infinite Beings. We have our little 3 -pound brain and have to work with it.

Emotional reasoning with the worst possible outcomes would be perhaps the reasoning of dictators who have sent tens of millions of people to their destruction through campaigns of genocide or forced mass starvation, people say, like Hitler and Stalin.

Most emotional reasoning with unfortunate outcomes does not result in the annihilation of tens of millions of people, or millions, or hundreds of thousands, or tens of thousands, or thousands, or hundreds and so on.

So I find that it is helpful to me to try to put my weaknesses and failures that result from emotional reasoning in perspective so that I can have a sense of moderation and proportion.

Most of us are spared the tragedy of causing genocide because of our emotional reasoning. But often we can feel a sense of impotence, shame, guilt and frustration that is out of proportion to the range and depth of our weaknesses and failures.

Patience with oneself is a virtue just as patience with others is. We are not Infinite Beings.

It is noble to struggle against one's weaknesses and can be downright heroic at times. It is not the kind of once in a lifetime heroism that makes the news. Perhaps it is equal to it in a way since the everyday drudgery of the struggle can often be harder than a one-time epic heroic deed.

2] Having an overriding mission in life can be helpful here too.

Perhaps an example might be illuminating. Many of us have heard of the Holocaust rescuer, Oskar Schindler who saved the lives of thousands of people during the Nazi reign. He is a hero celebrated by books and movies.

But he had to tolerate some pretty severe weaknesses and failures in life, failures and continued failures in his relationships, in his career and business, in his personal habits and excesses.

At one point in his life he had to sell lightbulbs door to door to make ends meet. He was hardly a saint. But he is not remembered for any of the negative things about his life.

He is remembered because he achieved a shining moment in his life because he had a goodly mission.

Now most people cannot be Oskar Schindler. But we can all have some kind of mission in life.

I know a homeless woman who begs on the street. Every day she gives a little of what she collects to causes by way of those little 'give loose change' boxes in gas stations, boxes for the March of Dimes, St. Jude's Children's Hospital, the Red Cross and so on.

Now I am sure this lady has had her share of losses and failures and weaknesses in her life and perhaps still does.

But she is a kind of heroic figure. Because she transcends these things by her mission of compassion for those less fortunate than her. And that mission, I think engenders in her a kind of nobility, distinction and moral stature that is beautiful.

I know a man who is almost completely homebound with illness. Each day he venture a few steps from his front door to feed birds and squirrels. When he is really broke he leaves a little bread by ant hills.

I have seen him struggle to walk to his mailbox. He walks with his eyes fixed on the ground to be careful not to step on any ants or little creatures walking beneath his feet. How sweet!

He is not going to make the news and he has some deep problems that he struggles with. But he is a kind of heroic figure.

Most people are so preoccupied with their concerns that they give no thought to the little creatures they crush beneath their shoes when then walk. But this man has given himself a kind of noble mission. And it is sort of beautiful.

These ideas help me. I don't know if they would be helpful to you or others. It is so difficult to be helpful sometimes and often our words are useless or even make things worse for others.

These two ideas are not mine. The first, is an idea of CBT. The other is an idea of psychiatrist Viktor Frankl, a Holocaust survivor.

I have a little mission myself. It helps to take me out of myself . . . helps me to avoid ruminating on my weaknesses and failures and loses of which I have many, to be quite honest. I still struggle, but I try to keep things in perspective when I can. It isn't as easy as it sounds, sadly.

This is actually not advice. I am not qualified to give advice. I just want to share what has helped me with my emotional reasoning. What helps one person doesn't always help another.

I do sincerely hope that you find things that help you. Sorry that I could not be helpful!
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Default Oct 15, 2021 at 07:55 PM
  #3
Hi Motts. I can relate to jumping to conclusions about others, yes.


I'm taking a non-violent communication course and much like DBT, it takes practice. Lots of it. I'm currently seeing no change. Lol. But I've only been doing it for like, a few weeks. and really I only practice with homework. The teacher said it takes much more time and practice to see any results.


I know that with DBT, there's the "Stop" skill, as well as "check the facts." I've gone through 2 rounds of DBT. Its helped me immensely but I still could be using the skills better. At one point, I planned DBT review and practice into my schedule. It helped, though it was hard to get myself to keep up with it! Do you think doing something like this would interest you or help you?


Mainly, I want to tell you though, you're not alone, we all do stuff like this sometimes and try not to be so hard on yourself. I see you being really hard on yourself here. Also I don't know how long you've been using the DBT and CBT skills, but give yourself some grace. I once had a spot in my gratitude journal for "things I did right"/"I'm proud of myself for..." because all I could often see were the things I did wrong. This helped!


Anyway, to get back to your question! Yes, I can relate for sure. At least you corrected your mistake. Yeah it took some time, but at least you are conscientious and kind about it.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 11:12 AM
  #4
What I have learned, and because I myself can have intense...extreme, even ridiculous, emotional responses. Because like so many, I didn't have a healthy family growing up either. I find it peaceful to accept who I am, which includes whatever flaws I do possess. No one in this world is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. No matter the reason for those mistakes. It's important to extend compassion to ourselves as much as we send it outward to others.

Not that long ago, I had...I guess I called it a "trauma response" for lack of knowing a better term for it. Where someone in a community I belonged to, someone I had feelings for, really deeply hurt me so I just took off without warning, removed myself from all social media, and bunkered down believing a situation of bullying and harassment was going to repeat itself. A friend I forgot to block on my phone from this community reached out and was like "Are you okay? You are scaring everyone!" And I was like what? Isn't this person bullying me and spreading lies about me? I'm just trying to stay safe." And their response was. "No, actually, everyone loves you and is worried about it. I'm getting tons of messages from people asking what is going on. No one is saying anything bad about you. People love you." And it really woke me up that sometimes our minds can tell us some horrible untruths. Though, in this case...that person I gave a second chance to? Turned out to be narcissistic and extremely abusive and put me through hell (I'm still healing from this). So. I think on some level I knew something wasn't right with that one person and I recognized it. But it was an error to believe that everyone else hated me and was trying to hurt me too.

Life is a lot of learning from mistakes and trying to do better next time. Maybe there are parts of ourselves that we can't change, or that takes a lot of time to change. And no matter what, you just have to love that part of you that messes up too. After all, it's not your fault, my fault, or anyone else's fault we've been through things that have wired our brains in a certain way. I do believe it's our responsibility to heal and pursue self-love.
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 04:36 PM
  #5
I’ve met many people who behave in the way you described, some suffer from various types of anxiety disorders. I work with a few and have some in my family and so on..

Let’s say a person without anxiety disorder would be ok sitting down thinking what happened to the package. Person overwhelmed by anxiety cannot tolerate anxious feeling of unknown and must immediately do something to ease the anxieties by acting/saying/doing based on emotion.

That’s where motivational reasoning comes from. Life is full of unknowns. But people with severe anxieties cannot handle unknown. They prefer to act right away or believe in some erroneous things so they can have certainty (even if it’s completely erroneous).

Have you been ever diagnosed with anxiety of any sorts?
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Default Oct 16, 2021 at 04:50 PM
  #6
My psychiatrist laughed at me when i said i was "smalling" my life, but that is what finally calmed me down and stopped triggering my too-muchness, as you describe.

Is it nature or nurture? Idk. Did anybody ever STOP pavlov's dog from salivating at a bell?

Looking at it another way, true self and false self - the hyper overresponsive me is definitely my false self, goaded on and teased by others all my life. So when the teasing stops, and the overreactions stop, im left with a rather empty true self.
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Default Oct 17, 2021 at 12:35 AM
  #7
Motts,

Thank you for sharing the link to what "motivational reasoning" was. It was an interesting read. I've not heard that term before! It would explain much of the political vitriol going on these days!

Concerning motivational reasoning within our personal circles, it would appear that our values and belief systems based on past experiences (whether it be good or bad past experiences) cloud our judgment sometimes. We may have implicit biases toward others who are not alike, or explicit biases about things that are out of the ordinary, such as a missing package.

I can relate to the missing package bit, as I have PTSD and live in an apartment complex. Sometimes my packages are missing or delayed, and the notifications I receive online and via email indicate that they've been delivered (even when they haven't). This irks me! My first thought is that the package was stolen. I have many other thoughts sometimes, but I get why that would be my first thought. I do try to wait the two days, but I always argue with the delivery service or postal service about their inaccurate website stating that the package was delivered, or the manner for which they've trained their employees to prematurely click on delivered when it wasn't. For customer service representatives to make excuses for the delivery persons clicking on the delivery button too soon and then having me wait two days before reporting it missing, or if I've already waited two days, for me to wait two more days after the first report, tells me that they clearly side with their delivery people over and against customer service. I know they are only doing their job, but whomever makes these scripts and prompts up to tell customers is really not understanding the main issue here - their employees prematurely clicking on the delivery button! But my mind goes into all sorts of places of injustices, stress, discrimination, etc. Who knows what the motives are, as we've seen a lot of political and hateful vitriol on news reports, social media sites, etc. It's hard to believe that mistakes are made, that packages are delayed, that there are honest neighbors protecting packages, etc. It's hard to see the good when our focus is so much on the bad, due to our lizard brain and limbic systems on fight-or-flight mode constantly, and due to our familiarity with loss issues, irreconcilable injustices, betrayal trauma issues, and more.

Yes, to pause and wait until the emotional storm has lifted sounds like a feel-good response to do before making decisions, but what if those feelings return again and again whenever you approach speaking with customer service yet again for a recurring problem?! At some point, you have to figure out a way to acknowledge that there are some things that are pet peeves to you, and possibly even injustices gone unrecognized (such as inept workers; or inept management mismanaging their workers and their training protocols; or biased persons purposely not delivering your packages on time, which could happen; or the possibility of porch pirates or neighborly thefts). When I lived in a crime-infested area in the past, thefts were quite common. Research does state that neighborhood violence and neighborhood effects like property crimes are traumatic, and the ongoing effects of such bring about intrusive thoughts, etc. Those are ongoing, continuous traumas - not imagined, but very real. It's no wonder that some (more privileged) areas don't have to deal with such hypervigilance all the time, whereas others do. It's therefore a common misnomer that all populations will respond to mental health treatment in a homogeneous way, when trauma, itself, is very multifaceted and diverse.

Our reactions to something out of the ordinary might be a combination of past trauma and present-day trauma, depending on the situation. It therefore may not be a case of "motivational reasoning" at all, as in the case of racial traumas and those experiencing microaggressions on a near-daily (if not daily) basis. The treatment for them is not going to be the same as others for other traumatic happenings, or even other non-traumatic yet adverse occurrences. Why? Because it's not imagined; it's very real.

The thing we have to understand is that, as trauma survivors, our reactions to things might be more heavy than the reactions of those without PTSD. The scenario with the package might still bother and frustrate a person without PTSD, for instance, so those feelings we experience are, in fact, valid. However, for those with PTSD, our reaction is more fight-or-flight, and so it gets attuned to seeing danger for survival purposes. Yes, it could be a bias, but it could also be a protective factor if there was an influx of porch pirates (those who steal packages on porches or in apartment complexes) at the time, or if you reside in a crime-infested neighborhood. There's a good balance to that, too.

My therapist offered an alternative solution for me whenever I feel on edge about many things. She suggested to write a safety list whenever I'm experiencing some level of stress that isn't a life-or-death situation, such as missing packages, loud noises in the neighborhood, changing rules, changing policies, etc. The safety list helps me to balance the fight-or-flight mode that my automatic response is to any stressor, which helps me to feel safe amid a stressful situation, and it also helps me to realize that I can calm down when it's not life-or-death. Some situations may take longer than others to calm down from. Finding safety includes things like good neighbors who care, or good and protective apartment policies, or good and protective neighborhood watches, or good and inclusive companies in the area, as well as the security of our home, our individual strengths (e.g., paying attention to detail, being smart, being resourceful), and having good relationships with those I do business with. All of those things, too, can help us calm down from a stressful situation before revisiting the situation again and reassessing the likelihood that the situation is dangerous. It might still be "dangerous" for some (such as when a package has been stolen), but being able to calm down with a safety list first will help us to be more clear-minded when tackling post-trauma or post-stress situations. We're so used to having to react quickly in order to survive trauma that we forget that there are many instances where we can take pause, reassess our own feelings (not the situation, necessarily, esp. if the situation can wait a day or two, or at least an hour or two), and then, once calmed, reassess the situation. Jumping straight into reassessing the situation might not be the best action plan if the situation perpetuates the fight-and-flight cycle, being maybe the situation is itself a trigger.

So, that might help??

It's important to validate your feelings though. Making a safety list while also validating your feelings as being safe to feel - that your feelings (set apart from behaviors) are safe to feel and put into words, too. Being angry is a feeling, but verbally attacking is a behavior. Being angry is a feeling, but seeking social justice and advocacy is a behavior. The difference between anger as a feeling and both behaviors expressed in the two previous sentences reveal the different ways we might respond - the first behavior from anger is reactionary, versus the second behavior from anger is proactive, which often takes more time and requires thought and some pause. The anger, in and of itself, is not bad; it's a feeling.

Many times, abused children were taught that their feelings didn't matter, that they couldn't show their feelings, that feelings meant they were "weak," and that feelings are "bad." But that's really unhealthy! Those, too, were biases that the parents believed for whatever reason. The parents believed in their own biases, so they exhibited such roles with their children, which were behavioral roles that were, in fact, neglectful and inappropriate. Children deserve emotional support, and they deserve emotional space. But in adulthood, we carry these feelings with us - these feelings we are afraid to feel and express. We may be more reactionary because we got sick of stuffing our feelings in for so long as children, or because we saw our parents being reactionary as adults, even though we weren't allowed to be reactionary as children. We never got soothed. We never got taught how to use our emotions as information to be proactive, to assess situations and how they make us feel. Our feelings are valid. Our emotions are real. They may be mixed with what is happening in the present as well as having intrusive feelings and/or thoughts from the past. But all of them are valid and real. It's what we choose to do that matters; it's our behavior to those feelings that matter. Being proactive is often the best approach when your life is NOT in danger. Being reactive when your life is in danger is also understandable and sometimes unavoidable, especially when disempowered during a traumatic situation. It's hard to differentiate the two, but with practice, it gets easier.

Hang in there. You're not alone.
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Default Oct 17, 2021 at 01:49 AM
  #8
To the OP,

I know how you feel. I am the same way usually when I am unstable. I just do whatever comes to mind, no matter the consequence. I became homeless during one of my psychotic episodes; although I learned a lot from it, I still got psychotic again afterward due to non-compliance.

I am now older and stable. I don't react to my emotions now. I'm actually very complacent- calm to the point of having no emotions. I don't know what is worse- being emotional or complacent. I have feelings still and at times want to react emotionally but am apathetic? I think having emotions sometimes is good. But, I understand that you are reacting to your emotions and causing trouble. I apologize that I don't have any good solutions or encouragement. I must say that as I became older, I am happier to be calmer. I know how it is to cause trouble for others and myself. Compliance helps a lot for me. I never went through CBT nor DBT. I just aged and my emotions died down. I still have feelings but not as strong.

I hope you become calmer too. I admit, it helps to not react emotionally under stress. Most people do though. I really don't know what is the best way to deal with stress. I try to avoid it as much as possible. But, this is no solution. I hope the other people's replies will help you. I just wanted to commiserate with you.
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Default Oct 19, 2021 at 10:24 AM
  #9
Quote:
It's just frustrating to know that no matter what CBT or DBT I try, I can't change. It's just not possible. And it's the reason my life is the way it is.
DBT is about change AND acceptance.

Both.

That is the "dialectic" of DBT: in order to change, we must first accept where we are.

Quote:
I'm really upset that I still let my emotions control my responses.
It might be helpful to review the mindfulness part of DBT.

It's nonjudgmental.

It looks nonjudgmentally at what happened.

To me, a more helpful response to an incident such as you describe will be something like this:

Quote:
[calm sigh] There I go again.

[calm sigh] Yep, that was another example of my emotions taking charge.

[calm sigh] What I should have done was checked with my neighbor.

I will try again next time.
Notice in the above there is no judgment of self, no self-condemnation, no catastrophizing.

There is simply a nonjudgmental acknowledgement of what happened.

This nonjudgmental, accepting approach allows your brain to process what happened and to better prepare for next time.

I predict that if you review, take, and stick with the mindful, nonjudgmental approach of DBT, you will see improvement.

Not today, not tomorrow, but over time.
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Default Oct 22, 2021 at 06:46 AM
  #10
I've been on a path of change for the past 23 years and "why can't I change" is something I've asked myself a lot on my journey, as well. But the areas where I have grown a bit, have been so slow in coming about, that I almost believe it's had nothing at all to do with my own efforts but just happened that way, anyway.

I'd say for some people the best thing you can do is to learn how to cope better with the way you are and just keep trying to do things better and differently. That's it.

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Default Oct 27, 2021 at 09:29 PM
  #11
Thank you everyone for your responses to this thread. I really appreciate all of your personal anecdotes and philosophy and advice and appreciate you taking the time to share your own personal experiences here. This is what I value about this community so much.

It’s forcing me to re-evaluate how I respond to unplanned surprises. I agree with everyone who reminded me that patience is a virtue and not to beat myself up when I make mistakes, but to try to reframe my mistakes as learning opportunities. And practice reframing when the opportunity arises again, until it becomes a natural response to surprises, instead of a practiced and forced response.
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