Bothered by lies

To put this in context I’m not bothered too much by lies in a situation whereby a person lying is an acquaintance or colleague, I find it irksome but that’s all.

If however it becomes apparent someone I really like, or who is close to me, has been lying I react quite emotionally. I feel insulted, think less of them and don’t trust them. Not horrendous life changing lies, fairly small unimportant ones. I just really don’t like lying.

Apparently everyone lies to some extent, I understand that, and I understand that white lies are sometimes necessary (like “I love the gift you gave me” when you don’t) but the other type of lying, about the circumstances of something/the truth of a situation - I react badly to those. Especially hard for me is when the person obfuscates or further lies when it’s clear what has happened in order to try to cover up. Like I’m expected to play along with them in order to avoid confrontation. I feel super awkward and it changes my opinion of them.

I don’t feel the same about a person again after this, they feel untrustworthy to me. Then I read online “everyone lies” that I need to adjust my expectations and I think “Well I really try not to lie myself” honesty and openness are important to me. I may hold back from sharing my opinion if I feel it’s not appropriate but I wouldn’t lie, I just would keep quiet.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Do others forgive lying easier than myself? How do you do this?

I've been thinking about the topic lately as well. And I think about it in similar ways. I sometimes feel like a fool when someone lies to me and I don't confront them - but I also think that is also often the liar's intent. The liar is trying get the victim to blame himself - or hoping maybe that the victim will think something like "there must be something wrong with me - that's why this person is lying to me".

The kind of lying you mention is not something I take very well so I can definitely empathize.

But I am a bit conflicted since being merciful is one of my ideals. Not that I've ever been especially good at it.

What helps me a bit [and just a bit] is my belief that most people tend to operate on "autopilot" most of the time. What I mean by this is that I don't think that people generally do things at the end of a long reflective and deliberative process.

People develop ways of doing things in their childhood, I think. Those things can become habitual so that in adulthood the actions just follow the habit that was initially formed.

Sometime people have some counterforce that provokes interiority and self-reflection and a desire to improve themselves.

Some people seem motivated to lean against their "bad" habits and even develop good habits so that when they are on "autopilot" they tend to make better decisions.

Sometimes people run on "autopilot" without even realizing it and can go a long time just assuming that if a thought pops into their head it doesn't need to be questioned and is just self-validating.

Prisons, I think are full of people who just "obeyed" the thoughts that popped into their heads.

I think the whole habit thing idea came from Aristotle. People just don't always do random good and bad deeds.

People find themselves in adulthood with a range of habits that relieve them of the chore of long deliberative processes that slow snap decision-making.

Some of these habits are good [virtues] and some are bad [vices] was Aristotle's view.

Of course Aristotle, following Plato believed that human beings should look at themselves and try to better themselves.

This isn't very fashionable today. But it wasn't fashionable in antiquity either.

Aristotle, I think believed that in adulthood people would be wise to take stock of themselves and try to discover what kinds of habits they acquired when young and try to change those habits that were not so good.

Aristotle thought that since humans were social beings, dependent on communication, that truthfulness was a necessary virtue.

Truthfulness greases the machinery on which social life depends. Without it social life would burn up like an overheated engine.

Later philosophers believed that humans had a higher duty to charity than to truthfulness when those values came into conflict, hence . . . white lies. You mentioned those in your post.

And there was the value of personal privacy where one was not seen to be bound to truthfulness if that enabled a person to invade one's personal private space.

We wouldn't need truthfulness if we as a species were mind-readers.

And a person all alone on a desert island wouldn't need to cultivate truthfulness in the social sense, only truthfulness to him or herself.

Perhaps 95% of morality is there because we don't live all alone on a desert island.

Often those who are not being truthful expect others to be truthful to them. This involves a person being a living contradiction.

It is like a bunch of bank robbers in a getaway car expecting all the other drivers on the road to obey the stop lights and such...'Lawfulness for thee but not for me' contradiction.

I have been both victim and perpetrator of lies, white and otherwise. I have been both victim and perpetrator of running on autopilot and falling into recurring hurtful and/or harmless mistakes.

Getting older sometimes helps since sometimes the longer one lives, the more apt one is to get into a situation which finally shocks one into insight.

I have insights now that I didn't have ten, twenty years ago. Sadly insight has its own timetable. It is not like education or experience which can grow incrementally.

A bunch of things have to all come together at the same time for an insight to occur in an "ah ha" moment. Of course education and experience help a lot.

It is easier for me today to forgive someone for untruthfulness but even now I am not very good at it. I tend to hold grudges and want to go the way of revenge rather than mercy. I think I am a little bit better at mercy than I used to be but I am not sure.

I was once talking to a dog obedience teacher and the subject was dogs doing their business in the house instead of outside. The dog owner usually responds by punishing the dog in some way.

Something the dog obedience teacher said caught my attention. He said: "the goal of punishment is not to have to continually punish the dog. The goal is to teach the dog to self-punish even when no one is around."

Perhaps none of this makes any sense. I am often wrong about things and am still learning.

Lying is something I just can't personally tolerate. BUT, I do believe there are circumstances where lying
is the better option. Lying to me equals untrustworthiness . Some people are truthful to a fault. Sometimes
telling the truth just makes the situation worse. What I don't like are HABITUAL lies. To me this then tends
to morph into a form of gaslighting. After awhile your very confused as to what is the truth and what is a lie.
Some people seem to be incapable of telling the truth. Everybody else lies but them.
In the end sometimes it's better just to keep your mouth shut. There is some insight into the saying , " the truth can hurt ".

Yaowen...........there is a lot to unpack in your post. Many good points which I agree with.
But for now I just want to comment on your last few sentences. " The goal is to teach the dog to
self punish even when nobody's around " I believe this is an excellent point. In the human sense
I believe this could be a process that directs us towards some type of morality. Humans , for the
most part tend towards avoiding punishment and conflict.
And on a personal note , your last sentence is anything but true , you are NOT often wrong about things.
And we are all still learning.

Yeah lots to think about here thanks, I’m glad I’m not alone in struggling with this.

It’s interesting a few people mention morality, I am a ‘straight up’ person, my husband described me as such today but I don’t think I’m morally superior - I certainly know how to lie and I did definitely do it in childhood/adolescence. As I grew into adulthood I came to strongly believe lies were best avoided, as they not only lead to all kinds of trouble but they stopped me making a true connection with others. That was my own personal journey.

So if someone lies to me, I feel something shut down between us, the connection is harmed.

I do feel conflicted, like I should be more compassionate, but idk maybe I’m right to be wary. It is similar to gaslighting in that lies cast doubt, and I feel like I’m second guessing a persons words and actions thereafter.

Oh and I agree @Yaowen you aren’t often wrong in my experience and in any case these are your thoughts and as such neither wrong nor right.

Puppy toilet training these days is positive reward not punishment (we have a family member with a new puppy!) but maybe that doesn’t detract from what you’re saying re human behaviour.

In general, I'm pretty forgiving about lies, especially if they're not hurting anyone. So any lie in which I feel no one has really been hurt I choose to be OK with. People have all kinds of complexes and vulnerabilities. So if someone lies and I catch them, I always try to come up with a plausible, acceptable reason why they might have chosen to lie. For example, I invite a friend out but they cancel at the last minute because they have to go to work, but then I'm at the office and don't see them. Well--maybe they had a stomach problem and didn't want to tell me. Of course, this comes down to whether or not you truly like and trust your friend. Too many mysterious lies make a person sketchy and I'm really cautious about letting "sketchy" people into my life.

The category of lies that truly gets under my skin (apart from the obviously, major wrong immoral lies, like infidelity, making up nasty stories about someone, etc.) are the lies people tell to make themselves seem better than others. This is distinct from insecure people making up lies so they feel "as good" as everyone else -- I have sympathy for that. One time, while hanging out in a group, a friend was asked about his college degree -- I knew he didn't have one, but he lied that he did. I felt sympathy for him; he felt embarrassed and didn't feel like admitting that he'd never finished. On the other hand, my aunt likes to say my cousin went to Harvard. My cousin did an extension program at Harvard after her undergraduate degree - totally different. I hate the lies people who need to feel superior tell.

Yeah I really get that about the guy lying about his degree in the moment to fit in. I would’ve understood that although probably would’ve thought it was sad he couldn’t be true to himself/pitied him.

Your aunt sounds like mine possibly, my cousin’s wife was a teaching assistant but my aunt would say she was a teacher, again I thought that was sad as teaching assistant is a good job to be proud of. My aunt embellishes a lot and exaggerates, I never really thought about it as lying but I guess it technically was.

I've been harmed too many times by people who were habitual and gleeful liars. I learned, even as a mature adult, that lies can do a lot of damage. Even "little ones".

I think every child tests boundaries, and teenagers especially have a reputation for routinely lying (although generalizations are something I tend to avoid).

I'm like you, Discom; as an adult I formed a very powerful dislike of liars, especially the intentional ones. Initially, I forgave them. But as it went on and did real and lasting damage to other relationships I prized very highly, I came to really resent it. And I do wish I had confronted those people openly and in public much sooner, and very firmly.

I do not feel bad about my resentments and my strong dislike of liars. I think they do not deserve any form of trust, and that they are capable of anything.

My parents hid a massive secret from me which was very harmful in many ways and the father had many affairs (and more) which he hid to protect his ''reputation''.

I'm bothered by lies too. I'm also not a fan of someone who is ''brutally'' ''honest'' though as although that might be Their ''truth'' it isn't always the only ''reality''. (labelling and name calling being one example)

Of course some of the habitual liars also engage freely in tossing muck around in the form of name calling. Why are they ''always right''?

Perfect reply!!! 😀

There are lies and lies, liars and liars.
Social vaseline is needed to accomplish with our goal as social animals.

I barely lie, I prefer to choice silent but I’m a liar and was much more a liar to hide my social anxiety. I used to invent excuses for not attempting to places and meetings that I used to avoid as hell because I felt very bad in them due to my social anxiety.

I avoid at any cost to lie about important stuff, or lying for the sake of lying and as I told you I prefer silent.

@Yaowen: This dog trainer is an @sshole in my own opinion. As he doesn’t want to know about dogs nature, he uses the easy path to get this dog to do what he expects him to do.
I had to say it because I’m freaking crazy for animals behaviour, including two legged ones and I know how things are at training behaviours and this dog trainer remains in the past. Old fashioned.

We sometimes lie to ourselves. That’s how much lie is ingrain as a defence mechanism.
So, I don’t want to have to do anything about machiavellian lies nor people who use this kind of lie but I would, Discom, try to be more tolerant towards other kinds of lies. As you are now trying to do by bringing up this topic.

I also have issues with lies. I think I may be on the autism spectrum, so I usually say exactly what I mean. I'm still learning that most other people do not do that. They either withhold information or tell outright lies.

Another issue is that I have a very good memory. So when people tell me lies over a long period of time, I am able to spot the inconsistencies and know they are lying.

It makes sense in your case and Discom’s case. Since you both have suspicious to be in the autistic spectrum.
For example, my nephew (slightly an Aspie) barely lie. Even when the truth will have bas repercussions for him.

My issue with lies has to do with my social phobia. I have been having troubles to read people for obvious reasons, few social contact, so lies will always make me feel pretty uncomfortable and lost.

Well, first, name-calling is pretty juvenile and lousy way to behave, in the first place. So, these people, on top of being liars, must also be slightly anti-social, and a bit behind in their development.

And, anyone who considers them to be "right" all the time is very likely also sharing the same traits as them. Just a guess.

I would find ways to never be in the same room with these individuals, ever again. It sounds like it's stressful, and is a complete waste of your time.

If that is not an option, I would hone my "grey rock" responses (which is zero response, in fact) and let them see it doesn't get to you. Shrug, and say, "What- ever", over over again, in your calmest, most indifferent tone. They hate it when you aren't vulnerable to their nonsense anymore.

Total love and respect for Fuzzy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a tough topic for me and one I have struggled with since I was a child. My mother was, in many ways, an extraordinary woman. She was also mentally ill. One of the ways in which her illness manifested was that she was a pathological liar. I mean that in the clinical, diagnosable sense. For example, she spoke to others of her trips to Europe, especially to Paris, a place she dreamed of and longed, so longed, to visit. But in truth, while my mother had traveled extensively - she had never set foot outside of the U.S., except just slightly into Canada and slightly into Mexico.

Ironically, a few years after my mother had died, I did travel to Paris, where my son was attending university. I so clearly recall sitting on a bench somewhere In Paris, looking at the scenes and activity around me, and the thought I had was, "Mom, you would not have liked this city." I may even have softly said the words aloud. What an odd feeling that was; I had a degree of guilt for being in the Paris my mother had only dreamed of visiting.

But for some reason I knew that, although my mom loved cities and lived in NYC for nearly 20 years, she wouldn't have found Paris comfortable. I remember that I felt sad, sitting on that bench with my thoughts, sitting in the city my mother had spent her life hungering to visit, never had visited, but told so many people she had - never seeming to realize that most people knew (sooner or later) she was lying, so avoided her.

My point is that my mother told lies as easily as she breathed. And her lying was pathological because she believed her stories. She'd make them up in her mind, out of a desire to be the special person she wanted to be seen as - and by the time her words landed in the other person's ears, my mom had convinced herself that her story - her lie - was entirely true.

I hated that my mother told lies - yet I so pitied her. I would think of how inadequate she must have felt, of the desperation she had to be someone special - someone, as she saw it, more worthy of love because she had done "special things." And, my mother was a true romantic with an immense ability to imagine and create. She was wounded whenever someone confronted her about her lying. To my mother, her imaginings were a joy ride she so loved that she wanted others to ride along with her.

So, yes. I struggle with people who lie. I also have sympathy for people who lie. Yet, I admit that I do avoid people who compulsively lie.

That is so eloquently put.

@Beth, your story about your mummy is very touching.
I understand how hard was for you to going through that. But, I admire that you show compassion and tried to understand her. 💖

The way you write about your Mom, *Beth*---I almost felt I might have known her. You write so well. And your heart is so good, to try and see things through her eyes, to feel what she felt. I am also glad you've come to a kind of peace about it.

Sadly, the liars in my life were malignant narcissists. After years of trying to understand and even forgive them (because I had always believed that inside everybody, there was someone redeemable), I found I absolutely could not. Because with every moment of forgiveness and attempts to grasp where they were coming from were repaid with yet more scheming, more calculated manipulations, humiliations, and hate-filled lies. I simply could not win.

LOTS of damage was done. And no amount of diplomacy, and re-visiting the past, will ever make it right.