[Fischmond]

Hi,

Since I have trouble seeking help and my determination to write this is fading, I'll better write this down fast before I delete the whole post. There is this strange combination of suppression and not wanting to be one of the "damaged ones" that still keeps me from sharing my problems with others. Seeking psychological help especially makes me uncomfortable, but at this moment I do not feel like I have much to loose.

I am 31 years old, male from Germany. I grew up here, my parents moved to Germany when I was about 6 years old. I studied physics and I am currently searching for Job(although I am self-employed providing IT-Sevices). I never was in any psychological treatment nor was i ever on medication.

My depressions began pretty early. The first time I can clearly remember was on my 10th birthday. There was no objective reason for feeling down and having the kind of thoughts I had on that day. My parents where apart from rather trival problems always loving and supporting. I always considered myself to be a loner and introvert, although a lot of people that know me are surprised to hear that(I know how to pretend ...). My adolescent life was not very happy, I was bullied at school and had to change my school because of that. My tendencies to isolate myself and to be untrusting where intensified by that I guess. I did go through some heavy depressions in that time, but I always tried to hide that. When I decided to change school it was on my own initiation: I informed my somewhat buffeled parents about it and insisted on it, though I did disclose to them how bad I felt. The situation in the new school got somewhat better. I found a group friends, though depressions kept coming regularly. I stayed away from school whenever I had the chance to, my grades where all right so my parents did not mind. I still stayed a loner and and had a lot of social anxiety issues. Depressive phases came and went, but there were more dark times than good ones(at least in my memory).

[all right. At this point I decided to delete this "my life" section and just stick to some baisc facts, maybe not posting at all. I am writing this to document my behavior to myself and others. I waited for some time until I came to my senses again]

My time as a student was quite all right at first. I found a good friend I resonated with and people I came along with. I had my first girlfriend and really nice experiences with other people. Depressions where still there but they had a more bittersweet taste to them. Things were going well. Then something happened that showed what a **** my than best friend was. It was a defining experience for me and I started to isolate myself more. Shortly after that I realized that I really had to workout what was wrong with me. I knew that I was different when it comes to reactions to stress. I knew that a study like physics is not easy so everyone gets anxieties now and than but not like me. Also people did not have the same issues with social situations, even so called "shy people". I reasoned that if I do not figure this out now, I would barely be able to deal with that when I have a demanding job and possibly family life.

I was halfway through my studies and could let things drag for a bit. I learned a lot about the inner workings of my issues at that time. Some of them are solved by now, some of them are far less demanding than they used to be. Things where all right than. I learned how to deal with girls(I studied pickup artists intensely), brought myself to let go at parties and made myself a lot more unfettered by other peoples opinions than I used to be. I internalized the difference between subjective realty and objective data, and how it affects people in general and myself. Depressions where still there in different magnitudes.

My biggest problems where during my final exams and my diploma thesis. Shortly before my last final exam I had something like a breakdown. I was visting my parents at that time and they thought I might have a stroke, so they brought me to the hospital(I tend to conceal/downplay my inner states, so they did not thought it might be a nervous thing). My MRI turned out fine, just like the other tests. I finished my last exams somewhat delayed with good grades. What I learned from that experience is to **** expectations from oneself and others when their are hurting your health. I try to stick to what I learned but sometimes I forget to.

My second crisis came during the writing of my diploma thesis. I needed more time for it than it normally takes but I finished it. It was hell and it nearly broke me, but I somehow came through. It was than, during the final phase that I discovered spirituality and esoteric for me. I remember searching online for a way how to make suicide look like an accident, when I came across the posts of a person in a forum that dealt with esoterics. The posts where quite poetic, most people in the forum thought he was just a wierd guy(strange considering the forums topic...), but I understood him on a very deep level.

I registered and had contact with some very interesting people.

[all right. after nearly deleting the whole post and deciding to not post at all, I forced myself to wait for a bit until I remember why I want to write all of this anyway.]

I had deep connections there. I opened myself to my own sensitivity and be able to put trust in people when you actually need them. I also met a girl who I fell in love with and who loved me back. We started to meet in real life and
it was beautiful to finally meet someone you can imagine to spend the rest of your life with. She had her issues too, it was with closeness over an extend period of time. Unfortunately, after over a year we used to be together, she can not deal with being so close to someone, so she broke up .

It does not come entirely unexpected, because I know and understand her issues well. Like me, she is quite self reflected about her problems. Never the less we planned our future together, even wanted to move together(in the same city). I started to actively search for a job this year. I am proud of myself, that I can finally deal with the whole "being evaluated" situations that job applications bring with them to a manageable degree. Nevertheless, it causes a certain strain on oneself(I am understating here ). Being left by the woman you love 2 days before valentines day does not help the overall situation.

I am proud that I learned to manage my depressive states by my own. I am not entirely sure about the current one. When I have the energy, I can pretend to function to people close to me. But the up and downs are far more frequent now. When earlier my suicide thoughts could be stopped by the thought that I cant do this to the people who care for me when nothing else worked, I feel how even this becomes irrelevant to me when I'm having an episode(which is often now, hard to keep exact track).

I am somewhat of a loss here. I thought about finally trying some anti-depressants. I know I must do something, because I realize the dance in the shadowland will probably kill me in the near future.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. I will not go through the post again to correct spelling, so sorry if errors made it somewhat hard to read(I'll probably feel stupid and delete the whole thing). English is not my mother language. I will spent the next hours with some quality time with beating myself up about being a weak **** (knowing oneself helps ). I know there are people who experienced actual **** in their lives and I feel bad about wasting time. But I know I will have stress factors in near future(an assessment center is coming up next week) and I am not sure how I will react in the "downtime" that will follow when I do not make it through it.

Btw: I know I do not have to take things like that to serious and that I should be aware that failing does not reflect on me as a person. When I'm good, I can do this, but i guess I am not good right now.

[ChangingMyMind]

Wow, it sounds like you're a strong guy! It's hard to manage depression/anxiety without the aid of medicine or therapy. It might help to get started on some therapy.

I am doing both medication and therapy. I wish I would never have started on the medicine because it's hard to get off of it but if you can get by without the medicine I would try therapy first. If not, if it becomes too much then trying a low dose of medicine with therapy may help.

Best of luck to you! Take care.

[paynful]

Thank you for sharing!!

I know it was incredibily difficult, but it took great courage. You should be proud of yourself! I am impressed, and very happy you didn't delete it.

I'm very glad that you reached out to people that you could relate to, and I know that there are more people here on Psych Central that would appreciate your point of view. I hope you keep posting!

I'm not sure I can offer any helpful advice... it would all be my based upon my opinion and what has helped me in the past. However, I would like to say....

You seem very analytical. Therefore, I would like to suggest you focus your research in more productive and positive direction (for example, trying writing down your most noticable symptoms and match them to medications and therapies that you could benefit from). It might help to start a journal to pick up on your behavioral/mood patterns.

From what you described, it sounds like you might want to focus on depression, panic attacks and social anxiety. Although, I'm sure you have already figured this out.

I wish I could have found this in German for you, but I wanted to share a link with you. It is in English. It is a 30 minute talk by Andrew Solomon. He addresses A LOT of what you wrote about. It helped me understand myself and my illness... and it made me feel less alone. I hope you can find some comfort in it as well.

http://www.ted.com/talks/andrew_solo...d.com_ASolomon

If you are feeling up to it, please keep posting!

[Clara22]

Hi Fischmond,
Thanks a lot for sharing. I have a couple of questions that have raised while reading your post. Please, feel free not to answer them.
You are talking about depression during your adolescence. Would it be possible considering this depression as a common feature of your adolescence or this depression would be "outstanding"? I am asking this because during my adolescence I experienced a lots of "ups and downs" and I was aware that a lot of people of my age felt alike (because I was more talkative and liked to share my feelings at that time. Now, I am an introvert, I think because I am under depression).
The second question is: can you sometimes identify triggers that lead to your depression phases?
OK, this is all for now. Hope you keep posting

Are you glad you shared?

[Altered Moment]

It sounds to me that your depression is very biological and genetic in nature. You say it started when you were ten and you had loving and supportive parents. No big traumas. That to me sounds biological. Stress triggers genes that do not function properly and we get depressed.
Depression is a very serious disease and can get worse as we get older, more episodes deeper depressions. It sounds as if it is getting worse for you.

I am somewhat of a loss here. I thought about finally trying some anti-depressants. I know I must do something, because I realize the dance in the shadowland will probably kill me in the near future.

Sounds like maybe it is time to reach out for help.
You are certainly welcome here and we hope you keep reading and posting in these forums.

[Fischmond]

Thanks for the responses. I could have answered earlier but it takes time until the tides are favorable for dealing with this. I like expressing inner states metaphorical like that, people who have similar experience know what I am speaking of and in conveys information in a compressed way.

Originally Posted by ChangingMyMind

Wow, it sounds like you're a strong guy! It's hard to manage depression/anxiety without the aid of medicine or therapy. It might help to get started on some therapy.

I am doing both medication and therapy. I wish I would never have started on the medicine because it's hard to get off of it but if you can get by without the medicine I would try therapy first. If not, if it becomes too much then trying a low dose of medicine with therapy may help.

Best of luck to you! Take care.

Being dependent on some medication that might or might not work, but that bring with it side effects that may cause new problems is the main reason I did not bring myself to use drugs. I have enough problems as it is to mess further with my brain chemistry in a difficult to predict way. Don't get me wrong: there were times where I would swallow no matter what might give me just a little hope of making things better. It is probably a good thing they are not accessible easily, and fortunately I have little energy in the worst times to go through the process of making a appointment with a doctor and get a prescription. There were times where I was ready to order anti-depressants through the Internet but I stoped myself at some point of the process.

I do experiment a lot with diet, life-style and supplements though. I try to do plenty of sports. During bad times it is difficult to do that consistently. I am proud of myself that I managed to condition myself TO DO IT ANYWAY. It works now surprisingly well. I do heavy strength training in the gym 3x a week. My current gym is 2 km from my flat. I try to run or walk there when I'm going alone. I also do a lot of jogging in the warmer months(10 km is my normal route).

Heavy physical activities really do make things better. They also add to self confidence. I used to be quite skinny when I was bullied at school as a kid and adolescent. Now I'm quite athletic looking, and I observe how the average punk is impressed by that. When I studied pickup art I also learned a lot about body language. There is a lot of helpful stuff in this area. Most people know about the biofeedback between forcing yourself to smile and starting to actually feel happier. A self confident stance does similar things. People also react differently towards you ...

Diet is another area I had good results with. Avoiding Gluten seems to help me with brain fog. I was also a pseudo vegan for about two years, meaning that I would only eat non vegan food every 2 weeks for a day. It really helped with my mood, the tides did not feel that extreme. I still avoid gluten, but it is difficult to maintain a gluten free, vegan diet for an extended period of time, so I stoped doing that. I try to eat healthy(vegetables and fruits) whenever I can though.

Supplements is another area I keep experimenting with, both for general well being and athletic performance. The thing with supplements is that, if there is an effect at all it is not that severe. And even if there is an effect you never know what part of it is placebo. I know myself well enough to know that behind all that experimenting is this fixed idea that I will come along a magic pill that will solve all my problems. Who knows ... maybe all my issues are caused by a lack in substance A, and supplementing it will make them go away. I observe how some people behave similar with actual drugs, therapy and all kinds of methods. I figure that if I stick with over the counter supplements to satisfy that need for miraculous healing, I can do the least amount of actual damage. This is just my opinion, and I may be wrong there. I told myself that in the past ... I'm not sure myself what I will do next.

Originally Posted by paynful

Thank you for sharing!!

I know it was incredibily difficult, but it took great courage. You should be proud of yourself! I am impressed, and very happy you didn't delete it.

I'm very glad that you reached out to people that you could relate to, and I know that there are more people here on Psych Central that would appreciate your point of view. I hope you keep posting!

I'm not sure I can offer any helpful advice... it would all be my based upon my opinion and what has helped me in the past. However, I would like to say....

You seem very analytical. Therefore, I would like to suggest you focus your research in more productive and positive direction (for example, trying writing down your most noticable symptoms and match them to medications and therapies that you could benefit from). It might help to start a journal to pick up on your behavioral/mood patterns.

From what you described, it sounds like you might want to focus on depression, panic attacks and social anxiety. Although, I'm sure you have already figured this out.

I wish I could have found this in German for you, but I wanted to share a link with you. It is in English. It is a 30 minute talk by Andrew Solomon. He addresses A LOT of what you wrote about. It helped me understand myself and my illness... and it made me feel less alone. I hope you can find some comfort in it as well.
If you are feeling up to it, please keep posting!

Thank you paynful . Andrew Solomon talk moved me deeply. I nearly cried at some points and laughed for his dry, touching humor. I saw it yesterday and I am watching it right now again. What he has to say resonated with me profoundly. He and I have a very similar way of looking at things. The point he made about how oneself is aware of the ridiculousness to have this states, despite knowing exactly that this is just a state and not reality is something that bothers me often. Knowledge alone does not solve things. One of the reasons I have trouble with sharing is that people who do not experience depression themselves do not understand how it works. Of course, knowledge helps to find strategies that help. And being understood helps a lot.

[I had to stop here for a while. Depression wanted to have its dance with me, and who am I to refuse such a beauty . I'm somewhat tired now, but writing this sentence commits me to go on, so here we go ]

There is a lot of things in this talk where Andrew is just spot on. I wanted to go through some other points he made, but I guess you are very aware of that. If you like, we can discuss the. I spent a lot of time reflecting and analyzing. It is what I do. Thank you for your post again. (I also value the cordiality of your post btw. I would like to respond in kind, but I am slow to open up emotionally and it wouldn't be me. )

Originally Posted by Clara22

Hi Fischmond,
Thanks a lot for sharing. I have a couple of questions that have raised while reading your post. Please, feel free not to answer them.
You are talking about depression during your adolescence. Would it be possible considering this depression as a common feature of your adolescence or this depression would be "outstanding"? I am asking this because during my adolescence I experienced a lots of "ups and downs" and I was aware that a lot of people of my age felt alike (because I was more talkative and liked to share my feelings at that time. Now, I am an introvert, I think because I am under depression).
The second question is: can you sometimes identify triggers that lead to your depression phases?
OK, this is all for now. Hope you keep posting

1. Yes, Mood-swings during adolescence is common. There is a whole subculture in every generation that even celebrates a certain dark-feeling: Emos, Gothics, Metal ...
I was never a part of one. After my adolescence, during my studies, I started to listen to metal music, but I did not identify with the whole culture associated with it.
I do not know what you would consider "outstanding". I can tell you that suicidal thoughts where very common for me. I never made an attention seeking thing out of it, in fact I hid it pretty well. Last month, at the age of 31, I told my father for the first time about it. He did not know and was baffled. He always thought I was just moody at times and did not believe in myself enough.
I don't know how I would have developed if were more talkative about my feelings back than. If you are trying to find out if you where depressive during your adolescence, you should discuss that with someone who has a neutral reference point on this issue. I did not know that I was depressive back than, I do not know. I thought that either I was a miserable piece of **** that did not deserve to live or that the world is a ****ed up place, that was going to get worse and worse, until no one could live and stand it any more. It was much later that I learned to distinguish subjective realities. My memory is also affected by my current state for sure, so I can not really discuss this objectively with you.

2. Extern stressors like my exams for example are triggers for sure. Obligations I do not feel I can meet in general.There are phases though where I can not remember any extern reasons and had phases of depression any way. Sometimes its relative little things that my mind takes out of proportion.
Feeling excluded and rejected is a big thing for me. I am pretty paranoid about it. For example: I work out at gyms for years now. Nearly every time I go there, whenever I enter I feel that people are looking at me for beeing insecure/looking to arrogant/looking out of place in general/needed to long open the door/entered to hastily... Whenever I hear a group of people joking and laughing with each other I suspect strongly it is about me. The list goes on and on, my mind is very inventive in that regard. I KNOW it is not the case, but that is what some part of my mind is doing to me. I managed to deal with that issue and it is FAR better than it used to be. Reprogramming myself in that regard is an ongoing process and it takes a lot of time. There is a whole set of similar thoughts I had before posting here .

Originally Posted by sophiesmom

Are you glad you shared?

The feelings and thoughts I had up until now are many . The link paynful gave me alone is worth it I would say. Doubts and the expectation that someone will finally put a knife in my back are there consistently. I am used to this kind of thoughts . I woke up this morning without feeling the need to give some further thoughts to my "exit strategy", so there is a change .

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

It sounds to me that your depression is very biological and genetic in nature. You say it started when you were ten and you had loving and supportive parents. No big traumas. That to me sounds biological. Stress triggers genes that do not function properly and we get depressed.
Depression is a very serious disease and can get worse as we get older, more episodes deeper depressions. It sounds as if it is getting worse for you.

(I do not mean the following paragraph in any demeaning way . I know from experience that I sound that way sometimes, so I put this disclaimer in front ;-))

Hmmm ... I think that you are somewhat fast to draw conclusions from the information at hand. "No big Traumas" is a highly relative term. An objectively minor thing in the right age and circumstances can be traumatic. Also: you do not know what "actual traumas" I might have experienced. The fact that I do not disclose them does not mean there weren't any. "loving and supportive parents" does not mean that there weren't problems in the relationship between parent and child. People can mean well and still cause damage because of VERY problematic character traits.

If my depression is getting worse or I am more tired of the same thing is something I haven't figured out for myself entirely. I can mange certain states far more efficient than I used to. This means that I can get out of them quicker or reduce the impact they have on me. On the other hand it seems sometimes that I regularly fall back to square one .

[ashpal]

Isak Dinesen (AKA Karen Blixen) wrote "All sorrows can be borne if you put them into a story or tell a story about them."

Shakespeare felt the same: "Give sorrow words; the grief that does not speak knits up the overwrought heart and bids it break."

Having the guts to speak up shows a lot of courage. Maybe someday you can push that courage further to allow yourself the opportunity to find help.

[Altered Moment]

Hmmm ... I think that you are somewhat fast to draw conclusions from the information at hand. "No big Traumas" is a highly relative term. An objectively minor thing in the right age and circumstances can be traumatic. Also: you do not know what "actual traumas" I might have experienced. The fact that I do not disclose them does not mean there weren't any. "loving and supportive parents" does not mean that there weren't problems in the relationship between parent and child. People can mean well and still cause damage because of VERY problematic character traits.

If my depression is getting worse or I am more tired of the same thing is something I haven't figured out for myself entirely. I can mange certain states far more efficient than I used to. This means that I can get out of them quicker or reduce the impact they have on me. On the other hand it seems sometimes that I regularly fall back to square one .

You are correct I was quick to draw a conclusion. I am sorry for that. Depression is a very complex disease and has many causes.

I guess I was projecting. Let me say that in my case I am convinced that it is very biological and genetic in nature. There are sometimes triggers that cause it but very often no triggers at all. I grew up with an alcoholic father and our family had plenty of problems. In my case there was no abuse and big trauma but of course it did have a big impact on me. I became an alcoholic myself and have been in recovery for 18 years. I have spent many years working through those issues in aa and alanon and therapy and group therapy and meditation and many things. I feel I have worked through those issues. In my case the depression has gotten worse as I have gotten older in spite of all the work I have done.

Sorry for projecting.

[Clara22]

Hi Fischmond,
Thanks a lot for the response. About my question about your adolescence's depression, by outstanding I meant if your depression disabled you somehow during that period. (I should have said "severe" and not "outstanding")
Sorry as I am asking an additional question (I am not sure if you have provided this information before). Do you feel that your depression is coupled with anxiety? If yes, how much important this anxiety is proportionally (I mean, in relation to your depression)?
I am asking these questions because I am not sure I understand you, although, I am very interested in all what you are communicating here.
OK, thanks a lot again for sharing your story

Then I am glad that you don't regret doing this....

Welcome...This is a really good place to rant or vent or complain or share success, no matter how small. Everyone is, I have found, extremely compassionate....

We are all sharing this boat....However you are feeling at any particular moment, you will be validated here. Probably at least one of us is feeling exactly the same.

[Fischmond]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

You are correct I was quick to draw a conclusion. I am sorry for that. Depression is a very complex disease and has many causes.

I guess I was projecting. Let me say that in my case I am convinced that it is very biological and genetic in nature. There are sometimes triggers that cause it but very often no triggers at all. I grew up with an alcoholic father and our family had plenty of problems. In my case there was no abuse and big trauma but of course it did have a big impact on me. I became an alcoholic myself and have been in recovery for 18 years. I have spent many years working through those issues in aa and alanon and therapy and group therapy and meditation and many things. I feel I have worked through those issues. In my case the depression has gotten worse as I have gotten older in spite of all the work I have done.

Sorry for projecting.

No worries. I like your signature btw .

You seem to be downhearted by the idea that depression is biologically predetermined. It also sounds like you see genetics like it is often portrait in popular science: in that there are loser genes and winner genes(or damaged ones vs healthy ones). This is not right by a scientific point of view, there is no such thing. Believe me, I done my diploma thesis on some physical characteristics of DNA, where I had to learn a lot of about the subject, and I was always interested in evolution and anthropology. Natural selection(survival of the fittest) is not the only force at work. Gene drift(which I would translate with "just being lucky") and population bottle neck mechanism(which means "being at the right place at the right time") are just as important. Albeit from that there is sexual selection(which means "survival of the gorgeous"), and this kind of selection often works against pure "survival fitness".

Remember the dinosaurs ? Perfect scary killing machines, designed for brutal survival. And yet it were tiny hairy creatures, with rather unimpressive claws and teeth, hiding in the earth and coming out at night that inherited this planet. Those where the first mammals, our ancestors. They survived where the dinosaurs did not, no matter what killed them finally.

The first photo-receptive cells(which are the most primitive precursors of eyes) where not super powered beings with an advantage over their brethren. They where horrible mutants with stuff on their outer shells that reacted to some invisible magic called light. It would take another mutation for them to actually do something with this excrescences to make them useful. Before that happened, they just survived because conditions were favourable at the time. Their descends learned how to use and react to this new thing called light ... and they thrived.

So who is to say if a biological inclination to seemingly pointless depression is a good or bad thing? Or Schizophrenia, or other mental illnesses? It might as well be the precursor to the next big step in evolution. Who knows ? Well .. I dont ... but this are my thoughts on that matter .

[Fischmond]

Originally Posted by Clara22

Hi Fischmond,
Thanks a lot for the response. About my question about your adolescence's depression, by outstanding I meant if your depression disabled you somehow during that period. (I should have said "severe" and not "outstanding")
Sorry as I am asking an additional question (I am not sure if you have provided this information before). Do you feel that your depression is coupled with anxiety? If yes, how much important this anxiety is proportionally (I mean, in relation to your depression)?
I am asking these questions because I am not sure I understand you, although, I am very interested in all what you are communicating here.
OK, thanks a lot again for sharing your story

No problem, ask away.

Yes, the depression did disable me often. My grades at school were affected and certainly my social life(which I really did not have much of). Feeling lifeless for extended periods of time does make it difficult to make new friends or keep contact with existing ones. I can be quite sociable when I'm good, but most of the time social interaction is taxing and I do not feel like even saying hello to anyone. It is not like I'm anxious about it during this times, it just feels like a demanding task that cant be endured.

Yes, my depression is coupled with anxiety. The anxiety is the worse part. Depression just immobilizes you, anxieties are torture. To be metaphorical it is like comparing being thrown down in a foul, dark dungeon with little water and food to the sessions with a torturer who drops in randomly but periodically. Sure the dark dungeon and the starvation is not nice, but it beats the sessions with the torturer by miles. You never know how long the sessions will be, and even if its over, you know he will be back .

I have concentrated on managing my anxieties in the last couple of years. I certainly made progress, but it is very depressing that they are still there. Today, I had to make a phone call to ask a potential employer about some general information. It should be just a short little phone call. I spent half the night thinking about my inner strategy how I can frame the whole situation so I can do it at all. I spent 2-3 hours before the call to psyche myself up so that my anxiety wont overhelm me. I jumped around my flat and shouted to release some energy. I wrote down instructions on a paper for me that could be made for a moron("don't forget to greet", "introduce yourself", some sentences and formulations I wanted to use and what I'm asking about, ... stuff like that).

The call lasted 2 minutes and 14 seconds. I feel drained. I think I managed to sound casual and interested/motivatated pretty well though. Thing is: the guy could not give me the information I seek. Later that day there will be some people who "might". That sucks. I have to keep energy in store for another try . I was hoping I could relax for the rest of the day. The whole thing could be funny, but only if you are not me.

Wasting energy on silly stuff like that impairs several areas of your life, yes. I felt pretty good yesterday and today on an energy level. In a depressed state I wouldn't even bother to think about this call. It used to be worse than that, so things are going well(high five for forced optimism )

[paynful]

Originally Posted by Fischmond

Thank you paynful . Andrew Solomon talk moved me deeply. I nearly cried at some points and laughed for his dry, touching humor. I saw it yesterday and I am watching it right now again. What he has to say resonated with me profoundly. He and I have a very similar way of looking at things. The point he made about how oneself is aware of the ridiculousness to have this states, despite knowing exactly that this is just a state and not reality is something that bothers me often. Knowledge alone does not solve things. One of the reasons I have trouble with sharing is that people who do not experience depression themselves do not understand how it works. Of course, knowledge helps to find strategies that help. And being understood helps a lot.

[I had to stop here for a while. Depression wanted to have its dance with me, and who am I to refuse such a beauty . I'm somewhat tired now, but writing this sentence commits me to go on, so here we go ]

There is a lot of things in this talk where Andrew is just spot on. I wanted to go through some other points he made, but I guess you are very aware of that. If you like, we can discuss the. I spent a lot of time reflecting and analyzing. It is what I do. Thank you for your post again. (I also value the cordiality of your post btw. I would like to respond in kind, but I am slow to open up emotionally and it wouldn't be me. )

I reacted very similar to Andrew Solomon's video clip (the multiple times I watched it). After I got past the man's creepy smile (what can I say.. it freaked me out ), I laughed, I cried, and was comforted. I'm so glad that you found it as helpful as I did.

It is a strange phenomenon to be so powerless against your emotions while at the same time being AWARE that it is ridiculous. I struggle with this often. In fact, I find my self-awareness to be as much of a burden as my illness.

Most people believe that once you realize the source, you can exorcise your demons. I cannot say this is true for me. I have recognized areas that need improvement in my self-care (for example, exercise and taking vitamins), but that hasn't "cured" me. It took a long time to realize that there was no cure for me. This is simply my life. There is only finding the right approach or treatment that will best serve me in living healthy, productively and (hopefully) happily to best of my ability.

I don't want to get my hopes up in thinking that it will help me as profoundly as the video clip did, but I am looking into Solomon's other works. So far, I have found a list of books he has written:

Saturn Schatten

The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression

Far From The Tree: Parents, Children and The Search for Identity

A Stone Boat: A Novel

If you don't mind, let me know if you find anything helpful (so I can benefit).

Speaking of which, thank you for all your responses! I know it isn't easy, but your sharing is as valuable as your insights. Forcing yourself into an exercise routine is admirable, especially to such an extent. Although, now I feel lazy for merely forcing myself to do Yoga in front of the TV. Maybe I can force myself into other regimes.

[Clara22]

Hi Fischmond,
Thanks a lot for your answer. Now, i could better picture what you meant ( I mean, your posts). Like you, my anxiety goes together with depression being anxiety the worst part. although i think environment have played a great role at configuring my depression, like Zinko, i think that in my depression there is a strong biological component. Another thing that i think is that depression is my response to stress. OK, i don't even know if these comments help you in any way. Hope you keep posting

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by Fischmond

No worries. I like your signature btw .

You seem to be downhearted by the idea that depression is biologically predetermined. It also sounds like you see genetics like it is often portrait in popular science: in that there are loser genes and winner genes(or damaged ones vs healthy ones). This is not right by a scientific point of view, there is no such thing. Believe me, I done my diploma thesis on some physical characteristics of DNA, where I had to learn a lot of about the subject, and I was always interested in evolution and anthropology. Natural selection(survival of the fittest) is not the only force at work. Gene drift(which I would translate with "just being lucky") and population bottle neck mechanism(which means "being at the right place at the right time") are just as important. Albeit from that there is sexual selection(which means "survival of the gorgeous"), and this kind of selection often works against pure "survival fitness".

Remember the dinosaurs ? Perfect scary killing machines, designed for brutal survival. And yet it were tiny hairy creatures, with rather unimpressive claws and teeth, hiding in the earth and coming out at night that inherited this planet. Those where the first mammals, our ancestors. They survived where the dinosaurs did not, no matter what killed them finally.

The first photo-receptive cells(which are the most primitive precursors of eyes) where not super powered beings with an advantage over their brethren. They where horrible mutants with stuff on their outer shells that reacted to some invisible magic called light. It would take another mutation for them to actually do something with this excrescences to make them useful. Before that happened, they just survived because conditions were favourable at the time. Their descends learned how to use and react to this new thing called light ... and they thrived.

So who is to say if a biological inclination to seemingly pointless depression is a good or bad thing? Or Schizophrenia, or other mental illnesses? It might as well be the precursor to the next big step in evolution. Who knows ? Well .. I dont ... but this are my thoughts on that matter .

Very interesting. One would think that these traits would be reduced by natural selection but it seems they are increasing. It is hard to say why the statistics show that depression is on the rise along with bi-polar. Could be that more people are seeking diagnosis or the criteria for diagnosis has changed. Let us say that there are more people with depression, anxiety, and bi-polar. This would seem to be counter intuitive as far as natural selection and evolution. So who knows maybe it is a good thing. I do think I have a strong genetic predisposition to depression based on family history. Of course it is very complex and those genes have to be triggered by environmental factors. I also think it is very biological in nature for me based on my experience coupled with the newest research. Mainly brain scans and the theory that there is something askew in the link between the pre frontal cortex and limbic system.
So as you say I could look at it either way or that there is no such thing as good or bad mutations.

I also have a strong interest in the same topics you are interested in. I have read Dawkins the Selfish Gene. The Naked Ape and other similar books. I do not have a formal education in it though. I do not agree with Dawkins and some others on certain points.

[Altered Moment]

My great grandparents emigrated from Finland. I am 1/4 Finnish. In Finland the suicide rate, depression rate, and alcoholism rate is very high. This is true for that side of the family for me too.
The interesting thing is that it is my understanding that the Finns embrace their depression and actually consider it a positive trait culturally.

[Fischmond]

I will get to all your comments as soon as I regenerate. Thanks for the compassion . Much has happened and I'm good(Sun is shining outside and I notice the spring flowers in my garden today. I also start noticing colors again ). I have much to say, I'm just tired. Your PN is first on the list paynful .

[Fischmond]

Ok, so here is the thing: I'm better now, but that also means that I start to blend my problems out and play them down in my mind. And I actually start regretting writing here. Writing down what happened yesterday forces me to admit that I have a serious problem and commit to the idea of starting a therapy.

So I had my second phone call yesterday and objectively it went very well. The guys where very pleasant and eager to meet me. Of course my inner dramas told me a different story, but I do not want to get into that. I started feel very bad and I knew I had to do something. I skyped with a student of psychology I knew, to ask about how a therapy works and what kinds there are. She told me that deep therapy would probably work best for me. She knows me pretty well but I never told her about my condition before.

Because she knows how I think about telling stuff, she made me promise to her that I will search for a therapist or even consider a hospital stay.

[I really loose my will to write on . Common ...]

After that my mood worsened. I was really down. Although that day was gym day, I had no intention of going. But conditioning kicked in I did it anyway. It was difficult this time. Strength training did not get me the surge of well being, I felt crappy. I started to lift heavier and heavier weights, to the point where a trainer came to me worried and told me that if I continue to do that I will hurt myself .

I went to the taning bed. I do not care about having a tan, but it has a positive impact on mood especially in colder months. It did nothing for me this time. I felt lousier and lousier.

[I'll try to keep to forum policy. If the mods think the next paragraph does not meet them I'm willing to change them of course.]

Soooo ... I walked out of the gym. It is in a high building. I went up to see if I can get on the roof to enjoy the view. Unfortunately the roof was not accessible. What a pity, I had to sit on the stairs for a while for failing to get there. I started going home(its 2 km from the gym). I was admiring the architecture, especially high buildings were in center of my appreciation. Having some reflections on kinetic energy and inelastic collisions, I did not find what I was looking for.

I changed my normal route to go over a rail bridge. Similar thoughts that dealt with physics and probabilities did not give me the result I was looking for. I went home, and there I kindled my interested for chemistry. I went through drawers of detergent and other stuff. Hmmm ... nothing effective there. I even went down to the cellar ... nada. One would think that you can find more in an average household. Stores where already closed, so no hope there.

I managed to go to sleep at some point. When I awoke I kept myself in the pleasant state between dream and wake for some time because I knew what kind of thoughts I'd have when I reached full consciousness. After actually waking up I felt crappy again. I do not know how long it took me but I finally decided that this can't go on like that. I canceled appointments for next week. It made me feel better. I made some decisions about my nearest future and it gave me some actual positive outlook for the first time in the last weeks.

But as I said, with feeling better my repressions sets in. "things are not that bad" and "ahhh, common, I can probly manage now, its not like you are really sick." are thoughts that creep in. This whole thread here is an unpleasant reminder of the contrary though, and that is good. I forced myself to write this post so I also cannot ignore what happened yesterday.

[paynful]

Originally Posted by Fischmond

Ok, so here is the thing: I'm better now, but that also means that I start to blend my problems out and play them down in my mind. And I actually start regretting writing here. Writing down what happened yesterday forces me to admit that I have a serious problem and commit to the idea of starting a therapy.

But as I said, with feeling better my repressions sets in. "things are not that bad" and "ahhh, common, I can probly manage now, its not like you are really sick." are thoughts that creep in. This whole thread here is an unpleasant reminder of the contrary though, and that is good. I forced myself to write this post so I also cannot ignore what happened yesterday.

While it is very difficult, it is a good thing to hold yourself accountable... to force yourself to look at the whole picture. I often find myself lost in the trees trying to find the forest.

I've been trying to make myself go to the doctors for assistance, but I just haven't been able to force myself, yet. The other day, I had a melt down. I was panicing and desperate. I vented here on PC, and found some comfort to get through that day. The following day, I was better, and tried putting off getting help... making up excuses and thinking that I didn't have enough cause for it. And then... I went back to read what I had written.

There was not one thing in particular that made that day worse than the others. There weren't contributing factors or triggers. It was just ME having a bad day. I know that I can't let myself get to that point again... or it could be even worse next time. While I might WANT to waste more time looking for the "right" solution, there is no time to waste. I have to do something.

Savor the sunshine and the happy moments. I'm glad you are looking into solutions for yourself. Thank goodness for locked roofs and lack of cleaning supplies. I hope you find whatever therapeutic option that works best for you.

[Altered Moment]

The process of accepting that "there was something wrong with me" (actually there is nothing wrong with ME I have a disease) was very difficult and took a long time. I was in a very dire place when I finally did. It was actually my wife who forced my hand but I did go willingly knowing she was right and accepted help. I actually felt quite relieved after. Like I said I was in a very dark place and it gave me hope. I agreed to go on meds, to see a therapist, and go to a drug and alcohol treatment program. I had been using meth very heavily which in itself can cause depression but if I was being honest with my self I knew my depression went much further back than my drug use.