I’m going to start this thread for a place to hold what I’ve learned. I’ve been losing the battle since I was diagnosed and placed on meds that cause weight gain.

I was very successful before that point. I knew it was going to be bad. But not this bad. I’ve been gaining weight, and it’s picking up speed. I know why. My insulin is climbing.

I used to have an A1c over 9 and weighed over 310 pounds. I reversed it with weight loss going low carb Paleo slowly over several years of extremely strict dieting. My doc was so proud of me—he put me on the diet around 2003. He is famous now in the Paleosphere.

So, I try again. My A1c was up over 7 last visit. I’m sure it’s worse. I have to get control. It will be much harder this time. I can’t let myself get huge again. I just can’t.

During my last manic event, I flew off to Mexico to get a gastric sleeve out of panic over what the Zyprexa was doing to me. It didn’t work. I can eat a little all day long. In fact it’s worse. Meat and eggs give me heartburn. Paleo is harder now.

I have screwed myself, and my meds made this seem insurmountable.

I shake my fist in the air. I’m going to fight, dammit.

Gary Taubes - Why We Get Fat, and What to Do About It

I had lost most of the 75 pounds I lost on low carb before his book came out. Yet, this was probably the most exciting thing ever to hit the low carb scene since Dr. Atkins.

It is so motivating, which is why I start here.

[Gus1234U]

the thing that worries me over the 'low carb diet', is the loss of nutrients found mainly in grains. if a person were to change the way they eat grains, instead of cutting them out altogether, i would feel less wary.

for example, i eat, almost exclusively, a course ground, multigrain bread, and i try to limit my intake to about 125 calories a day... that's one slice. i also allow myself a hearty european-style cereal some mornings, for 350 'high protein' grain calories. i try not to buy any highly processed grains, like noodles or flour products. what i don't have in the house, i can't run out and get when i have a craving, so for me it's best to cut the calories off at the source.

my ideal diet is one that contains mostly vegetables; meat at least once a day; very little fruit; some nuts, cheese, eggs, milk and legumes (beans and peanuts). i also tailor my diet to the "blood type diet", which advises food groups based on metabolisms.

most importantly, in my opinion, is the actual results noticed by the individual, as no single diet is going to fit everyone~! another big tool in my box of tricks has been learning to tolerate and ignore those hunger signals, when i know i have been loaded up with calories already... and late night snacks (which are still the bane of my blood tests).

wishing you the best with your plan, KeyTones, and hoping you find the way to slim~

[greentires4me]

What’s a good “a1c over...” then?

A1c target for me is below 6

I’m taking off for the day but I’ll write more about diet soon.

Gus-I’ve tried something similar but I couldn’t make it work for me. Dr. furhman’s diet (your description reminds me of his diet, but his preferred version is vegan and very low fat).

I have an autoimmune problem so I try to avoid natural toxins (like lectins, saponins, and gluten and related proteins), so I avoid bread/wheat, legumes/peanuts, and soy. I will eat peeled potatoes and rice in moderation (100 carbs/day) when I’m not off the rails.

I was able to do tHe McDougall version of low fat high carb vegan and I lost weight rapidly and got my A1c below 6, but after several months I grew extremely cold, tired, and even confused. I couldn’t walk a few blocks up an incline. My doc said I had symptoms of anorexia. I had to quit that. I did lose another 50 pounds over the 75 on low carb. Sigh. It took me several months to recover from that. I was supplementing with vitamins and B12 etc.

[Gus1234U]

hi Green, good to see you posting....
not sure i understood your question. are you asking what is a good A1c ?
do you have diabetes ? the answer is nationality sensitive, as we all seem to use different measures across the world.

Here is a 10 minute video on ways to reverse diabetes. Yes, reverse.

I don’t want anyone to think there is only one answer. I know of three methods.

This one is fascinating. It’s just a 10 minute video. This is Dr. Jason Fung, a nephrologist (kidney doc).

https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-re...2-video-course

I managed to get through the day on substantially fewer carbs than usual. The videos are helping get the message to sink in. I have really been off the rails lately, and I can’t let that continue.

Here is another motivational video - Sugar the Bitter Truth

Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Endocrinology, explores the damage caused by sugary foods. He argues that fructose (too much) and fiber (not enough) appear to be cornerstones of the obesity epidemic through their effects on insulin.

I’m on my second day of dropping carbs. I’m surprised at how well it is going. I haven’t been able to do well for months now. I guess this journaling is helping me.

OK, so the methods I know reverses diabetes:

1) gastric surgery (but mine failed due to meds causing me to eat)
2) low carb plus fasting (low carb alone drops blood sugar but I couldn’t reverse it on its own—I have to fast too).
3) the Rice Diet and similar (McDougall for example, Ornish) - it has to be EXTREMELY low fat, meaning make it fat free until the diabetes is reversed). Yes, this is an all carb diet

Here is a YouTube video on the Rice Diet, known to not only reverse diabetes, but also heart failure and kidney disease. If lithium kicks my kidneys, I’m doing this.

[greentires4me]

Originally Posted by Gus1234U

hi Green, good to see you posting....

not sure i understood your question. are you asking what is a good A1c ?

do you have diabetes ? the answer is nationality sensitive, as we all seem to use different measures across the world.

My dad had diabetes type 2. As it runs in the family there is always a possibility to get it as well.

Okay thank you for your response!!

Ah, I should clarify that I am only talking about type 2 diabetes.

Here is how I learned about the Rice Diet - Denise Minger speaking at a paleo symposium. I like her because she is open-minded.

This is day 3 of low carb. My appetite is coming down a bit. I’m debloating. I know it’s not fat, just water—but it helps getting that four pounds off to walk uphill to the car (daily walk after work).

Dr. Fung says if you have high insulin, you retain a lot of water. That’s me.

I’m going to listen to Dr. Fung discuss how low carb and fasting reverses diabetes for motivation. Energy does now go down, it goes up. Insulin goes down. Growth hormone goes up. Fascinating

https://www.dietdoctor.com/the-perfe...nd-weight-loss

I am already off the rails...I'm not sure why. Maybe I have to post something to keep me on track.

I was feeling very good when I dropped the carbohydrates. It is time for me to commit and just push through the cravings. I know from past experience that they eventually die away.

Onward.

I managed to somehow remember one of the most brilliant things I’ve ever read in diet advice.

Stephan Guyenet’s blog post on how to lose weight. This was part of a series of posts on the factors causing obesity.

Stephan is an obesity researcher at the University of Washington, last I checked:

Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part VII

...and since I’ve learned the hard way that blogs sometimes disappear, I’ll copy it here, if it fits:

Recommendations

I've organized this weight loss strategy into five different "levels" based on the desired outcome. Some people may want to use this strategy in a preventive manner, or to address metabolic disorders other than overweight that are related to excess energy intake (insulin resistance, fatty liver, etc.), in which case they would probably want to stick to levels 1-3. Levels 4 and 5 are primarily for people who are not losing weight at the lower levels, and would like to further reduce food reward and the body fat setpoint.

The goal is to adopt a diet that allows fat mass to return to a healthy level, while eating nutritious food to fullness. You may initially feel deprived, but you should become more satisfied by simple food over time.

Level 1

The low-hanging fruit:

Avoid the highest reward foods: candy, sweetened chocolate, ice cream, cake, cookies, other sweet baked goods, fast food, pizza, and other foods that you know are particularly problematic for you. Don't put yourself in a position to be tempted by these if you can avoid it.

Minimize liquid calories, particularly sweetened beverages, beer and sweet cocktails. Modest quantities of milk, wine, and unsweetened spirits are fine.
Don't snack. In France and many other countries with strong food traditions, snacks are for children. Adults eat at mealtime, in a deliberate manner.

Level 2

In addition to everything in level 1:

Avoid industrially processed food in general, particularly packaged food with many ingredients. Minimize restaurant food. Cook your own food from single ingredients to the extent that you're able.

Avoid adding sweeteners to food and drinks-- including artificial sweeteners. The sweet flavor itself is a reward factor.

Avoid seed oils (corn, soybean, sunflower and safflower in particular).
Include a regular source of omega-3 in your diet. This can come from some mixture of wild-caught fish, flax seed/oil, pastured meat/dairy/eggs and green vegetables.

Level 3

In addition to everything in levels 1 and 2:

Reduce the overall energy density of your food (calories per volume) while keeping it nutritious, but don't go overboard. This can be accomplished by adding extra vegetables to the meal, and using potatoes and sweet potatoes as the main source of starch (rather than bread, pasta, rice, etc.). Microwaving is a fast and effective way to cook potatoes and sweet potatoes for those who are short on time.

Focus on minimally processed foods.

Don't add fat to your food. That doesn't mean don't eat fat, it just means keep it separate from your cooking. If you want to eat butter, eat it separately rather than mixing it in with your dish.

Level 4

This level is about simplicity. Here, we are approximating the reward value of certain non-industrial diets. In addition to everything in levels 1-3:
Eat only single ingredients with no flavorings added. No spices, herbs, salt, added sweeteners, added fats, etc. If you eat a potato, eat it plain. If you eat a piece of chicken, eat it plain. It can be in the same meal as other foods, but don't mix anything together. If you would like to keep salt in your diet, dissolve it in water and drink it separately.

Cook foods gently. Minimize grilling, sauteing, broiling, frying, and particularly deep frying. Add a bit of water to the pan, rather than oil, when cooking meat or vegetables, and cook gently with the lid on.
Minimize all liquid calories.

Only eat foods that taste good when you're hungry; avoid foods that you'd be inclined to snack on even when not hungry. A lot of foods move from the latter category to the former when they're completely unseasoned.
Some people will benefit from avoiding wheat. Your mileage may vary on this.

Level 5

This level reduces variety, which is another reward factor (4). This is something that you attempt at your own risk, as there may be downsides to eating the same foods every day. I think the risk is small if you choose your three foods carefully. I wouldn't recommend doing this indefinitely, but rather as a short-term strategy to lose fat, followed by a more relaxed maintenance phase.
Pick three foods, and eat nothing else. Try to pick foods that will provide a relatively balanced diet. A starch, a meat and a green vegetable is one possibility. For example: potatoes, broccoli and beef. Again, cook everything gently and add no seasonings to your food whatsoever, including salt.

Macronutrients

Some people have lost fat simply by avoiding carbohydrate or fat. I've heard people say that a low-carbohydrate diet in particular curbs their cravings and allow them to have a healthy relationship with food again (although others have developed strong cravings on low-carbohydrate diets). I believe this is partially driven by the fact that carbohydrate and fat are major reward factors.

I believe that all things being equal, it's best not to restrict any macronutrient to an extreme degree (there may be some exceptions, such as diabetes). That being said, as carbohydrate and fat are major reward factors, they are additional tools in the toolbox that you can use to further reduce reward if you choose.

Don't be a Drill Sergeant

Ultimately, for any diet to work, it needs to be sustainable. It's probably a good idea to allow yourself a meal or two a week that you really enjoy. Just don't indulge in the worst offenders-- foods that will stay on your mind, and reinforce your cravings for days or weeks. You know what your own trigger foods are. Don't even put yourself in the vicinity of those foods if you can avoid it. If your diet is balanced and nutritious, your cravings should subside over time, and you will become more satisfied by simple food.

An Alternative Strategy

In his book The Shangri-La Diet, psychology researcher Dr. Seth Roberts outlines a simple strategy that he claims can lower the body fat setpoint without significantly altering the diet. The technique involves taking flavorless calorie-containing foods between meals, which lowers overall energy intake by suppressing appetite (according to him, by lowering the setpoint). I'm not going to steal his thunder, so you can read his book, or visit his website or forum if you want more information about how to implement it.

I tried Dr. Roberts' strategy for a week out of curiosity, and it did suppress my appetite somewhat. According to the theory, the more excess fat mass you begin with, the more your appetite should be suppressed. I didn't have much fat to lose, but I noticed a modest effect on my appetite nevertheless. I have a few reservations about the technique. I don't know much about its long-term effectiveness or safety, and neither does Dr. Roberts, according to our communications. It doesn't strike me as having the potential to be very dangerous, but as our ancestors didn't sip refined olive oil between meals, the precautionary principle applies. Still, it's an interesting technique that I'll be keeping my eye on in the upcoming years.
Stephan Guyenet at 7:00 PM

Gouda cheese is high in Vitamin K2, the elusive activator X factor written about by Westin A Price - for robust health, resistance to aging, and strong bones.

K2 is a cofactor for the absorption of vitamin D.
FI’m
Read about it here:

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist....ese-of-choice/

I managed to fast yesterday and half of today. I had to break it because of a terrible headache I’ve had since yesterday. Sure enough, coffee (with cream) and the headache dissipated.

I’ve not done much this weekend due to the headache. I did schedule and plan vacation finally. I’m worried about gaining weight that week.

I have to get some things done today.

I didn’t manage to fast today, and I don’t feel great. I feel heavy, weighed down. It’s even harder to walk uphill and breathe. I will have to fast tomorrow to get myself on track.

I am fascinated by this low vitamin D situation my MIL talks of. She spends her days outside whenever she can. I am perplexed by her low vitamin D.

I am going to have to ask her if she is getting enough calcium. Apparently that can cause a low reading.

Chris Masterjohn, PhD explains why here:

Apparently, the blood draw measures a marker indicating low D or low calcium. It doesn’t measure vitamin D directly.

I must start making mashed cauliflower again. It’s my favorite! I didn’t realize cruciferous vegetables are high in calcium. I’ll have to go read about that now,

I am feeling better today—pretty good really. I skipped any eating all morning and pushed my lunch back a little. I’ll skip snacking this afternoon until dinner.

It’s not a fasting day, but I’m doing better. Last time I did this I had to ease into it.

Took my k2/d3 vitamin this morning along with the chewable vitamin. All low carb eating so far today.

I listened to a Stephan Guyenet YouTube video this morning, and was reminded of things that stimulate appetite. I should take notes to post on this sometime.

Here:

The Neuroscience of Overeating explained by Stephan Guyenet

On my way home, I stopped into the grocery store. I think I had evil intentions—I found myself fondling some snack bags, but I backed away, told myself I’ll have cheese when I get home. What is better than cheese with all that calcium and Vitamin K2?? LOL.

I can’t say my afternoon went well, I did get hungry.

I’ve done this before, and I know I get to the point where I don’t crave anything and don’t even care anymore. I remember someone once tried to get me to say what my favorite food was, and I couldn’t think of anything. I’d like to get there again.

I keep running into the story of a 456 pound man that lost weight down to 180 pounds on a fast that lasted 382 days (medically-supervised with supplements/minerals but no food), no harm came to him, and he did not gain the weight back (ref: W.K. Stewart/Laura Fleming, Scotland medical research publication 1973).

I think there is something healing about fasting. I wish my doctor supported it more--last time I talked to him, he said fast 24 hours at a time (the one meal a day method). I want to do more.

The publication is online but it is a pdf. I found a write up by Mark Sisson/Mark's Daily Apple (the website of a well-respected Paleo guru). Here it is:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-weight-loss/

“When a person has had too much to eat, fasting is the smartest thing he could do.” – Mark Sisson, Mark’s Daily Apple.
If that sounds harsh or even unrealistic, consider the story of the Scotsman. Back in 1965, an obese Scotsman of 27 years and 456 pounds came to the Department of Medicine in Dundee, Scotland, with a problem. He needed to lose weight. A (1/8 of a) ton of it. The doctors suggested maybe not eating for a few days could help. It was just an offhand recommendation, but our Scotsman (known only as “AB”) really took to it. He stayed at the hospital for several days, taking only water and vitamin pills while undergoing observation to ensure nothing went wrong. When his time was up, he continued the fast back at home, returning to the hospital only for regular monitoring. After a week, he was down five pounds and feeling good. His vitals checked out, blood pressure was normal, and though he had lower blood sugar than most men, he didn’t seem particularly impaired by it. The experiment continued… for 382 days.

Yes, AB fasted for 382 days, drinking only water and taking vitamin, potassium, and sodium supplements. All told, he lost 276 pounds, reaching his target weight of 180 pounds and maintaining the bulk of his weight loss. Over the five following years of observation, AB regained just sixteen pounds, putting him in excellent, but underpopulated territory (at least 80% of dieters eventually regain all the lost weight). Other doctors paid attention. Maybe it was the fact that it was the 60s, and all sorts of crazy stuff was going on – rebellion in the air, good music being made, a war in Vietnam, Ken Kesey and his Merry Pranksters blazing across the U.S. in a beat-up school bus, spreading the good weird word, Kevin Arnold and a young Marilyn Manson coming of age in Anytown, USA – but for whatever reason, placing obese patients on extended and short-term fasts became relatively common practice.

But could this work for the average person looking to lose weight without submitting to constant medical observation?

Absolutely. Study after study shows that whatever you want to call the protocol – intermittent fasting, fasting, alternate day fasting, or alternate day caloric restriction – it works very well for weight loss. A few recent ones:

• In non-obese patients, alternate day fasting increased fat oxidation and weight loss.
• In obese patients, alternate day fasting was an effective way to lose weight; dietary adherence remained high throughout.
• In young overweight women, alternate day fasting was just as effective as caloric restriction at causing weight loss, and adherence to the former was easier than to the latter.

So, yes: it works. But does fasting work solely through caloric restriction, or is it doing something special?

That’s the real question. There’s no question that fasting causes weight loss through caloric restriction. Obviously, when you don’t eat anything, your body turns to its own stored energy reserves, reserves that take up physical space and have mass. Depletion of those energy stores reduces mass and thus weight. Total and absolute caloric restriction. That’s elementary stuff and the studies from the 1960s show that.

To dig a bit deeper, let’s look at how weight loss occurs during a fast. I’ll stick to research involving humans only (sorry, rodent personal trainers).
Secretion of growth hormone, one of the premier fat burning hormones, increases during a fast. In a five-day fasting protocol, men experienced increased GH secretion on day one and day five (the only two days where GH was measured). A later study showed that during two-day fasting sessions, growth hormone secretions increased in both frequency and intensity in men. They experienced more frequent GH bursts and each burst secreted a higher mass of GH. A more recent study found that 24-hour fasts increased GH by 1300% in women and almost 2000% in men.

Fasting decreases fasting insulin levels. The presence of insulin inhibits lipolysis, the release of stored triglycerides (body fat). Without lipolysis actually releasing stored body fat, it’s rather difficult to, well, burn that body fat for energy. During a fast, fasting insulin decreases and lipolysis increases. This insulin-blunting aspect of fasting quite literally allows the fast to be successful, because without the ability to access stored body fat for energy, making it through a period of zero caloric intake will be nigh impossible.

Fasting improves insulin sensitivity. 20-hour fasts were enough to improve insulin sensitivity in men.

Fasting increases the catecholamines,
both adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine). Both catecholamines increase resting energy expenditure during a fast, and guess where your fasting body finds the energy to expend? From body fat. Catecholamines activate hormone sensitive lipase present in adipose tissue, spurring the release of said fat. This makes intuitive sense, doesn’t it? If you’re hungry in the wild, you need to hunt (or gather, or fish, or somehow procure food) and you need energy to do it. The catecholamines help provide some of that energy while burning fat in the process.

Hmm, notice anything? All those mechanisms dealt with fat burning specifically. While there may be some weirdo out there who’s interested in reducing bone mineral density and muscle mass while maintaining fat tissue, I would wager that what most people mean by “weight loss” is “fat mass loss.” From the stuff I just linked, it looks like fasting burns fat, rather than just weight. But what about Conventional Wisdom which claims that fasting increases muscle wasting – maybe because your body will totally recognize the lethal nature of all that arterycloggingsaturated animal fat and choose to break down muscle instead? Is it true?

Let’s go to the research:

In one study, normal weight subjects ate just once a day without reducing overall caloric intake. Weight didn’t change, which isn’t really surprising, but body composition did change – and for the better. Body fat decreased and lean weight increased (in addition to a bunch of other beneficial changes) without an overall reduction in calories.

A recent review of the relevant literature found that while fasting and caloric restriction are “equally as effective in decreasing body weight and fat mass,” fasting is “more effective for the retention of lean mass.”

Conventional Wisdom strikes out again.
In closing…

It appears that fasting “works” in several different ways:

1. It decreases caloric intake. In order to lose weight, you need a caloric deficit. That really isn’t in contention here, folks.

2. It increases fat oxidation while sparing lean mass. Since what we’re trying to do is lose fat (rather than just “weight”), the fact that fasting increases hormones that preferentially burn fat and decreases hormones that inhibit fat burning is extremely desirable.

3. It improves adherence. In most of the studies surveyed, participants found fasting to be an extremely tolerable way to diet, especially when compared to outright caloric restriction. Even AB, the fasting Scotsman, reported very little difficulty throughout his 382 day fast. If fasting is easier for you than trying to laboriously count calories, fasting is going to be the more effective weight – er, fat – loss method.

All in all, fasting is an effective way to lose body fat. It’s not the only way, and it isn’t “required” for Primal weight loss, but many in the community have found it to be very helpful and the literature backs them up. If you’re looking to jumpstart your fat loss, fasting may be just the ticket. To get some ideas, be sure to check out my post on various fasting methods.

In subsequent installments, I’ll highlight some of the other benefits of fasting. There are a ton, and new research is being released all the time, so I expect I’ll have a lot to discuss. Until then, I’d like to hear about your experiences with fasting for fat loss. Has it worked? Has it failed you? Let us know in the comment section!
Thanks for reading, everyone!

[Gus1234U]

yah, yah, when you find the study that shows how to get the will power to not eat,,, then post THAT~!

Ha! Indeed.

I made it from midnight last night to around 7 pm tonight, so about 19 hours, not bad. I wanted to do better.

I can tell you that I used to do extended fasts, and they are hard at first, but they get easier. The question is, can I do it on lithium.

After the second day, the hunger dissipates, and energy becomes a problem. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it is true and has to do with the body’s hormonal responses (insulin drops, giving access to stored body fat for energy; growth hormone skyrockets; cortisol goes up) and gives us energy to look for food.

It isn’t as hard as a low calorie diet.

This is what a lot of people report, as well as Dr. Fung, who puts his patients on fasts.

[Gus1234U]

i have just come to believe that it's dangerous for me to fast. when my blood sugar gets low, i begin to shake, and get weak. i had a neighbor who died from that, so it upsets me.

Gus—that sounds really upsetting, I am really sorry.

I just realized that I used to post in a low carb forum in the Dr. Jason Fung threads where people were familiar with low carb, fasting & diabetes (the forum is gone now). No one with diabetes should fast without going over it with their doctor and getting instructions on how to manage it. I’ve tried with low carb but only got so far. The rice diet, which also works, made me feel terrible and isn’t viable; it’s too extreme (but I got the most normal blood sugar readings that way). I have already tried gastric surgery, and it failed (this also works).

The reason I need to do this is it’s the only viable solution I see anymore. I don’t want to “manage,” which I know is going to be my demise. I need to reverse it. Diabetes runs on both sides of my family in people that aren’t even obese. I’m obese and I’m on psych meds. I don’t stand a snowball’s chance if I don’t do something. Metformin and insulin are not going to save me. I know what the complications are going to be and what the end stage is.

My doctor knows what I’m doing, and my doc & Dr. Fung know each other. I have a fairly famous Paleo doc (he has his own website, videos, fb site, gives Paleo talks), and I’ve actually seen Dr. Fung repost my doc’s posts. Anyone that wants to reverse diabetes needs to study it and talk to the doctor about how to handle medications, the glucose readings, activity, etc. Buy doctor Fung’s books, read his blog, watch the YouTube videos, and go slowly/be prepared.

Here is an introductory video—Dr. Fung on reversing diabetes. He actually does this with real patients, it is a real thing, he is a nephrologist:

https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-re...2-video-course

I found a faq Dr. Fung answered about fasting and diabetes, but more should be reviewed than just this, of course.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/intermitt...d-answers#t2dm