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wanttoheal
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Question Aug 08, 2009 at 02:03 PM
  #1
I don't know if this is concrete thinking, but whatever it is, sometimes it's so frustrating. I know my brain did it originally to protect me, but it doesn't help much now. I was wondering if anyone else experiences this or struggles with this. I do both.

When I am not around someone for a length of time, they cease to exist for me. I don't miss them and I don't think about them, don't even remember them if it is longer than my brain can deal with. If I have a long relationship with them and it's deep, I will remember them longer than otherwise, but I still am very disconnected.

I see this even in my children. I have a deep, and daily, relationship with my children thankfully. But when they go away for a few days or a week, it's as if they don't exist too. And they are my children. My children, on their own, have realized I do this and they make a huge effort to have daily contact with me so I will have a connection with them. I guess it's not as if they don't exist. I still know they exist to a degree I think (at least with my children). But I have no emotional connection with them. With other people though, they can completely disappear from my brain while they are gone, whether or not I want them to.

It's the same with T. It makes it very hard with T, because if I don't see her or have a connection with her frequently enough, I can't see that she is still who she says she is or who I know intellectually for her to be. She becomes unsafe to me and that causes a shut down in my brain. I either can't stay present or I can't talk. I can be okay while not with T or not talking to T, but when I see her again, I have to basically start over.

It's not as bad as it used to be, I guess, but it's harder now in some ways. In the beginning, I didn't have enough trust in her to be affected by it. And I didn't talk about anything really so it was okay. I have finally gotten to the point where a lot of the time, T feels safe overall. She has been as consistent as she can be. We've had ups and downs, of course. Every time we've had a down, my brain went on automatic backing up to keep safe and we've had to start again in the sense of safety and trust. But through time, it has gotten some better. My brain processes a little bit quicker to see that she is still T. She's learned what triggers my thinking that she is not safe. I've learned that while she sometimes says or does something, overall, she's still the same T.

The problem is that now I do trust her to a degree and I do talk with her about stuff. And so the time outside of therapy and going back to therapy each time makes that harder.

My T has a lot of contact with me generally, which has helped this immensely while we work through it. But it's still such a struggle. If I do not have contact with T for a period of time, I seem to be unable to see that she is still T, even after all these years. She sometimes becomes the abusers in my life, or at the very least, she becomes too distant for me to believe she is still safe. While this happens with everyone, it seems to affect me more with T because my healing and our work depends on me feeling safe and connected enough to communicate.

If I haven't had a frequently enough connection with T throughout the week, we have found that it takes nearly the whole session for my brain to see that she is still T (depending on the length of time). It's frustrating for me. I'm sure it must be for T as well. We always have to spend at least 10-15 minutes reconnecting in the beginning of the session. This is often because I am not present when I get there and it takes me a while to come inside my brain to know where I am. But when we end up taking 3/4 of the time we have set aside for therapy, it really makes it hard to delve into anything. And if we took 3/4 of the session to realize T is still T, that sometimes puts us at a deficit for the next session. There are times we end up spending the entire session just lightly talking about nothing (and I know it's important to do that too) just so I can see that T is still T. This can also be completely negated if my brain disconnects before I have contact with her again.

It took several years for me to trust my therapist enough to talk out loud. It took several years for me to stop the denial of what goes on for me and to see that she is somewhat safe. I don't find anyone safe to the degree that perhaps "normal" people do. It takes a long time for me to see that people are who they say they are and my wall and defenses are sky high 99.9% of the time. I wish it weren't so, but if I'm honest to myself, it's very so. I can talk about superficial things to the point where people think they know me when they don't know anything about me. Everything to keep the body safe, I think. With T, it really hinders the process of healing at times.

I don't know that I'm explaining this very well. T said that it is understandable that I struggle with it. She said that because my environment was so unsafe, it made my brain compartmentalize things to an extreme to feel safe.

I get upset with myself sometimes about it because I think after all this time, my brain should be able to hold onto the fact that she is who she is and is still safe, but I can't seem to do it for any length of time.

I'm old! This is going to take too long if I can't find a solution around it.

Do any of you guys struggle with this or similar?

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Heart Aug 08, 2009 at 02:39 PM
  #2
{{{ wantto }}}

I was actually talking to p-doc about this very thing, although my disconnect is not as deep as yours. I can remember people, but it's like someone unplugs my emotional attachment to them when I walk out the door. Unless of course, they die. Then I'll lose the "physical" memory of them, or at least it fades wayyy into the background (too painful). Instead, I hold on to the emotions associated with them, (usually sadness) as if the emotion IS the memory. P-doc said we need to reverse this.

Even things like transitional objects don't really help. I "know" they're supposed to keep me connected to T but I can't seem to figure it all out. At least not yet.
Quote:
This is going to take too long if I can't find a solution around it.
I'm a firm believer that knowledge is power. The more we learn about the reasons behind what we do, the more the puzzle pieces start to fit. If you did some reading about object relations, I think it would be a "V-8" moment.

I think it's perfectly understandable why you disconnect like you do, considering the severity of your trauma/s.
Quote:
I get upset with myself sometimes about it
Well knock it off.

Read this and see if it makes any sense.
 
Concrete thinking- Trauma based thinking?

Maybe you always knew that your "attachment" to the parental units was for basic survival needs only. Why would you ever in a million years want to hold on to their moral characters?

You wouldn't. Hence the disconnect. You can't trust the moral characters of most people, although I think some might've snuck in behind that big ol' wall.
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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 03:07 PM
  #3
Thanks so much for responding Orange. I'm so sorry about all your losses. I'm trying to think about that. My husband died several years ago and I think I must have been sad? But I don't know. I think I sometimes have emotions but I don't know what emotions are named. T and I are working on this too. Apparently all emotions have a physical response and certain things that make you know what emotion it is. Very confusing for me. But when I think of husband, I think I miss him- because I don't have any feelings about him. I don't know if that makes sense though. But it's almost as if because I am so numb to the fact that he died, I think it must be because I must miss him.

Quote:
Even things like transitional objects don't really help. I "know" they're supposed to keep me connected to T but I can't seem to figure it all out. At least not yet.
Transitional objects don't seem to work for me either. I have a few pictures of T and I think it helps, but it hasn't changed anything so I think it must not. The same with objects she (or anyone) has given me. I have even faked that things mean something to me, just to seem a little normal.

Quote:
I'm a firm believer that knowledge is power. The more we learn about the reasons behind what we do, the more the puzzle pieces start to fit. If you did some reading about object relations, I think it would be a "V-8" moment.
I think I'm ready for some "V-8" moments if they will help me get through this. Maybe I can find some stuff and take it to T to read with her. That article that you posted is very interesting and makes sense to me. I think it might fit with what goes on for me.

Quote:
I think some might've snuck in behind that big ol' wall.
I think you're right. And I'm really glad for that.

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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 03:23 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by wanttoheal View Post

If I haven't had a frequently enough connection with T throughout the week, we have found that it takes nearly the whole session for my brain to see that she is still T (depending on the length of time). It's frustrating for me. I'm sure it must be for T as well. We always have to spend at least 10-15 minutes reconnecting in the beginning of the session. This is often because I am not present when I get there and it takes me a while to come inside my brain to know where I am. But when we end up taking 3/4 of the time we have set aside for therapy, it really makes it hard to delve into anything. And if we took 3/4 of the session to realize T is still T, that sometimes puts us at a deficit for the next session. There are times we end up spending the entire session just lightly talking about nothing (and I know it's important to do that too) just so I can see that T is still T. This can also be completely negated if my brain disconnects before I have contact with her again.
((((((((((((((((((wanttoheal))))))))))))))))

I could have written most of your post. I SO relate to what you are saying.

The paragraph above describes my therapy so perfectly. I go twice a week, or there is no chance I would ever be able to do any work BESIDES trying to connect and know that I am safe. And we have pretty frequent between-session contact, too. I know it seems extreme to a lot of people, but it seems like the only way I can hold on to T, and who he is. Lots of weeks, I spend the Tuesday session mostly in silence, just trying to get safe, and we can't do any work until Thursday...and then there is the four day break, and then we do it all over again. It IS frustrating, for me and for T. I wish it were different.

I have the same issue with people besides T. Actually, that's one of the reason I love facebook (which I recently joined)...all of the low-key but frequent contact with people keeps them "there" for me.

I wish I knew the solution. I've been so frustrated in therapy lately because of this very thing - lots of breaks this summer has meant a HUGE step backwards in therapy for me. It feels really discouraging sometimes.

I don't have ANY words of advice or wisdom, but I just wanted you to know you are not alone....and to send you lots of
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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 04:35 PM
  #5
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Originally Posted by treehouse View Post
((((((((((((((((((wanttoheal))))))))))))))))

I could have written most of your post. I SO relate to what you are saying.

The paragraph above describes my therapy so perfectly. I go twice a week, or there is no chance I would ever be able to do any work BESIDES trying to connect and know that I am safe. And we have pretty frequent between-session contact, too. I know it seems extreme to a lot of people, but it seems like the only way I can hold on to T, and who he is. Lots of weeks, I spend the Tuesday session mostly in silence, just trying to get safe, and we can't do any work until Thursday...and then there is the four day break, and then we do it all over again. It IS frustrating, for me and for T. I wish it were different.

I have the same issue with people besides T. Actually, that's one of the reason I love facebook (which I recently joined)...all of the low-key but frequent contact with people keeps them "there" for me.

I wish I knew the solution. I've been so frustrated in therapy lately because of this very thing - lots of breaks this summer has meant a HUGE step backwards in therapy for me. It feels really discouraging sometimes.

I don't have ANY words of advice or wisdom, but I just wanted you to know you are not alone....and to send you lots of

Thank you so much for responding treehouse. It's nice to know I'm not alone, though I'm so sorry you and Orange struggle with this as well. I know that the amount of contact T has with me might be more than others as well but I'm so glad she's willing to give that to help me stay connected.

Facebook is a great idea. I do have two facebook accounts, but they are not my real names. It's too hard for me to put myself out there for others to see the real me, but I have found a way for close friends to be on my facebook without my real name. While they thought it was kind of weird, they accept me and think I'm pretty eccentric overall so I guess it works. It does help for sure. While I don't write on there, just reading their stuff does help me realize they exist.

I'm glad we can be here to encourage each other.

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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 05:48 PM
  #6
I struggle with the same issues, wth. For me it is very much a case of 'out of sight, out of mind'. I think it is an old survival mechanism at play but, like you, I don't know how to change it. I am not in therapy at the moment, but these issues still play out in every single other relationship in my life.
It makes me not a very good friend, unfortunately.
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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 09:37 PM
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I'm sorry you relate as well Luce, but am thankful to have people to talk to about this. It affects my relationships as well.

I have a lady who was a good friend when we lived near each other. I ended up leaving for a few months to go somewhere. When I came back, she told me how much she missed me. I couldn't comprehend it at all. I didn't even know what to say to her about it. I'm sure I faked some reply, but I remember wondering what she meant and how come. Now we live kind of far from each other and when we do talk, I don't have any connection at all. She's a lady I know, I guess? I think I feel bad that I feel that way. But I don't know what to do to change it. Even when we lived near each other, she did most of the contacting. If it weren't for that, I'd never have talked to her I think. It's sad because she is a really nice lady and I think if I was normal, we could be really good friends still.

And now, I have people who were good acquaintances, but because I am not able to keep up the connection, they have faded away and some have gotten angry at me. It takes so much for me to feel safe with someone and even more to keep in my head that they are safe continually. It makes me feel that having friends long term is an impossibility.

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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 10:32 PM
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanttoheal View Post
I don't know if this is concrete thinking, but whatever it is, sometimes it's so frustrating. I know my brain did it originally to protect me, but it doesn't help much now. I was wondering if anyone else experiences this or struggles with this. I do both.

When I am not around someone for a length of time, they cease to exist for me. I don't miss them and I don't think about them, don't even remember them if it is longer than my brain can deal with. If I have a long relationship with them and it's deep, I will remember them longer than otherwise, but I still am very disconnected.

I see this even in my children. I have a deep, and daily, relationship with my children thankfully. But when they go away for a few days or a week, it's as if they don't exist too. And they are my children. My children, on their own, have realized I do this and they make a huge effort to have daily contact with me so I will have a connection with them. I guess it's not as if they don't exist. I still know they exist to a degree I think (at least with my children). But I have no emotional connection with them. With other people though, they can completely disappear from my brain while they are gone, whether or not I want them to.

It's the same with T. It makes it very hard with T, because if I don't see her or have a connection with her frequently enough, I can't see that she is still who she says she is or who I know intellectually for her to be. She becomes unsafe to me and that causes a shut down in my brain. I either can't stay present or I can't talk. I can be okay while not with T or not talking to T, but when I see her again, I have to basically start over.

It's not as bad as it used to be, I guess, but it's harder now in some ways. In the beginning, I didn't have enough trust in her to be affected by it. And I didn't talk about anything really so it was okay. I have finally gotten to the point where a lot of the time, T feels safe overall. She has been as consistent as she can be. We've had ups and downs, of course. Every time we've had a down, my brain went on automatic backing up to keep safe and we've had to start again in the sense of safety and trust. But through time, it has gotten some better. My brain processes a little bit quicker to see that she is still T. She's learned what triggers my thinking that she is not safe. I've learned that while she sometimes says or does something, overall, she's still the same T.

The problem is that now I do trust her to a degree and I do talk with her about stuff. And so the time outside of therapy and going back to therapy each time makes that harder.

My T has a lot of contact with me generally, which has helped this immensely while we work through it. But it's still such a struggle. If I do not have contact with T for a period of time, I seem to be unable to see that she is still T, even after all these years. She sometimes becomes the abusers in my life, or at the very least, she becomes too distant for me to believe she is still safe. While this happens with everyone, it seems to affect me more with T because my healing and our work depends on me feeling safe and connected enough to communicate.

If I haven't had a frequently enough connection with T throughout the week, we have found that it takes nearly the whole session for my brain to see that she is still T (depending on the length of time). It's frustrating for me. I'm sure it must be for T as well. We always have to spend at least 10-15 minutes reconnecting in the beginning of the session. This is often because I am not present when I get there and it takes me a while to come inside my brain to know where I am. But when we end up taking 3/4 of the time we have set aside for therapy, it really makes it hard to delve into anything. And if we took 3/4 of the session to realize T is still T, that sometimes puts us at a deficit for the next session. There are times we end up spending the entire session just lightly talking about nothing (and I know it's important to do that too) just so I can see that T is still T. This can also be completely negated if my brain disconnects before I have contact with her again.

It took several years for me to trust my therapist enough to talk out loud. It took several years for me to stop the denial of what goes on for me and to see that she is somewhat safe. I don't find anyone safe to the degree that perhaps "normal" people do. It takes a long time for me to see that people are who they say they are and my wall and defenses are sky high 99.9% of the time. I wish it weren't so, but if I'm honest to myself, it's very so. I can talk about superficial things to the point where people think they know me when they don't know anything about me. Everything to keep the body safe, I think. With T, it really hinders the process of healing at times.

I don't know that I'm explaining this very well. T said that it is understandable that I struggle with it. She said that because my environment was so unsafe, it made my brain compartmentalize things to an extreme to feel safe.

I get upset with myself sometimes about it because I think after all this time, my brain should be able to hold onto the fact that she is who she is and is still safe, but I can't seem to do it for any length of time.

I'm old! This is going to take too long if I can't find a solution around it.

Do any of you guys struggle with this or similar?
Concrete thinking is thinking in the literal sense. when you look at something black you see black you dont see the different shades of gray that made up that black thing. when someone tells you its as cold as a witches ____ you think its literally as cold as a witches _____. when someone tells you its hot enough to fry an egg out on the side walk you believe an egg will cook on the sidewalk.

The not knowing people when not in contact with them I used to have that problem to. someone could walk up to me and start talking and I wouldnt know who they were because it was out of context of where I met them and who I was when I met them. my therapist said its part of having DID and not knowing personal information like who all your friends are all the time. like not knowing all the places you lived all your life. it will get better with time mine did. for a while I kept a list of who my friends were and their contact information so that I wouldnt forget who they were. I let them know I had this problem so we worked out a system of keeping in contact with each other. if they havent heard from me in two days in a row they call or come by. now I dont have that problem anymore.
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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 11:17 PM
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I relate hugely to everything everyone has already said here. Yes, the phrase "out of sight, out of mind" has been like a mantra in my life. Also, the stuff fraom Fairborn ... have read object relations theory and it just makes so much sense to me. i have Prior's book but haven't read it yet.
I figured this out about myself early in therapy. It was hardest on my little ones, so attached to T, but when out of her presence, could not use thoughts of her or the transition object she gave us, none of that was a comfort. It is like the infant who sees the toy and reaches for it, but if you hide it behind your back they haven't yet grasped that is still exists, is just out of sight. Until they are older, the object ceases to exist. It all makes sense because our attachments to our caregivers (for those of us abused by them, or neglected by them) disrupted our ability to learn that developmental task. We still have not mastered it. For most of my adult life, I questioned what kind of a person i was because when things went kind of "off" in a relationship, I'd walk away without a second thought. I am actually a very deeply loving person, or parts of me are, but some parts feel almost nothing. So I totally hear you all and yes it is difficult. What helps me is that knowledge that it is not my fault that I am this way. It happened because i wasn't nurtured and loved in a positive way. Now, when i find myself feeling distant, I try to remind myself that the feelings of connection will return, that they are not absent, just hidden deeper within me than i might wish. I've come to trust that in essence, I do really love my best friend, even when i don't feel it.
I really want to thank you for this thread, because it brought up a really, really important issue that is obviously important to a lot of us. And everyone here spoke eloquently about their experiences of feelings of absence. I feel quite certain that a lot of people will gain valuable insight into their relationships after reading all this and it will ease quite a lot of pain just knowing that it isn't some moral flaw, as i used to think. It is most definitely a consequence of our childhood experiences, a result of "insecure attachment." (Mary Ainsworth, John Bowlby).
My best to all of you valiant persons ...

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Default Aug 08, 2009 at 11:44 PM
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Lack of "object constancy" ...oh I know and I'm sorry you know about it too.
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Lack of Object Constancy: When a person is lonely, most of us can soothe ourselves by remembering the love that others have for us. This ability is known as object constancy. Some people , however, find it difficult to evoke an image of a loved one to soothe them when they feel upset or anxious. If that person is not physically present, they don’t exist on an emotional level.
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object constancy,
the ability to perceive an object as unchanging even under different conditions of observation.
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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Calista+12 View Post
Lack of Object Constancy: When a person is lonely, most of us can soothe ourselves by remembering the love that others have for us.
That is truly a miracle. I would love to know what that feels like one day. I always tell T that I have no problem with "outgoing" love, (at least I don't think I do) but I'm unable to feel the "incoming".
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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by amandalouise View Post
Concrete thinking is thinking in the literal sense. when you look at something black you see black you dont see the different shades of gray that made up that black thing. when someone tells you its as cold as a witches ____ you think its literally as cold as a witches _____. when someone tells you its hot enough to fry an egg out on the side walk you believe an egg will cook on the sidewalk.
Yea, I had already looked up the definition. I knew it didn't fit, but it was the closest thing I had in my vocabulary to say what was going on for me. I guess I do have some concrete thinking though for if someone says it's hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk, I do actually picture an egg being dropped on the sidewalk and it cooking. Or maybe that's just my imagination running wild.

Quote:
The not knowing people when not in contact with them I used to have that problem to. someone could walk up to me and start talking and I wouldnt know who they were because it was out of context of where I met them and who I was when I met them. my therapist said its part of having DID and not knowing personal information like who all your friends are all the time. like not knowing all the places you lived all your life. it will get better with time mine did. for a while I kept a list of who my friends were and their contact information so that I wouldnt forget who they were. I let them know I had this problem so we worked out a system of keeping in contact with each other. if they havent heard from me in two days in a row they call or come by. now I dont have that problem anymore.
Good idea about writing things down. I wish I was organized enough to find the papers that get written here. Things tend to get written on scraps of papers and then they disappear. Apparently the cleaning part doesn't like the mess. I've had people that will keep in contact with me and I've had people get irritated at me. That's great that you are healed from it. I hope the same for myself one day.

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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 04:48 AM
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It is like the infant who sees the toy and reaches for it, but if you hide it behind your back they haven't yet grasped that is still exists, is just out of sight. Until they are older, the object ceases to exist. It all makes sense because our attachments to our caregivers (for those of us abused by them, or neglected by them) disrupted our ability to learn that developmental task. We still have not mastered it.
This makes so much sense! Thank you so much for this.

I so relate to what you've said. I too have felt (and still feel) that it is a flaw in my personality. I have thoughts that perhaps I am just such a cold and uncaring person that I just cannot feel anything for people. But that wars with the reality that I do care for people. But when the connection is broken, I am unable to just feel it again at the drop of a hat. I hope so much to get to where you are in realizing that I am not flawed, or at least recognizing that it was not my fault. (That last sentence was very hard to even write so I know I'm obviously not even close to being there. )

Thank you so much for responding.

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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Calista+12 View Post
Lack of Object Constancy: When a person is lonely, most of us can soothe ourselves by remembering the love that others have for us. This ability is known as object constancy. Some people , however, find it difficult to evoke an image of a loved one to soothe them when they feel upset or anxious. If that person is not physically present, they don’t exist on an emotional level.
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much Calista. I am definitely going to talk to T about this.

That word "L*ve" is a very difficult word. It had too many other meanings for me growing up and just makes me cringe (or throw up, lol). But I do understand the remembering part.

Thank you also for that link Calista. I am going to print it off and take it to T.

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Thanks for this!
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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 12:27 PM
  #17
(((wanttoheal)))

You are in no way to blame for feeling like this. (but that's what we do, isn't it...blame ourselves?) I always used to put a new spin on "out of sight, out of mind" and say "when something is out of sight, I am out of my mind". I know what an uncomfortable feeling this is. No one would wish this on anyone. You're very welcome for the link; I hope it helps.
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Heart Aug 09, 2009 at 01:39 PM
  #18
Here, wantto. Read it again.

I'm sure Calista+12 won't mind that I made some minor -- yet HUGE -- adjustments for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calista+12 Concrete thinking- Trauma based thinking?
Lack of Object Constancy: When a person is lonely, most of us can soothe ourselves by remembering the care and concern others have for us.

This ability is known as object constancy.

Some people , however, find it difficult to evoke an image of a safe person to soothe them when they feel upset or anxious. If that person is not physically present, they don’t exist on an emotional level.
A small change here or there = baby steps.
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wanttoheal
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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 01:42 PM
  #19
Wow, thanks Orange. That makes a HUGE difference. I was actually able to read it through.

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Default Aug 09, 2009 at 07:57 PM
  #20
sorry we just copied something...& thought it might help
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