[dragonfly2]

Hi everyone -

I've just gone through both an inpatient and partial hospitalization stay and one of the therapists challenged me to do something both scary and interesting. She challenged me to remove dissociation as a coping mechanism. She understands that it is not something I "choose" to do on a conscious level, but still asked me to change my approach from "managing it" to taking it off the table completely. I'm not even sure this is possible.

Some background: I have Depersonalization Disorder and suffer from both depersonalization and derealization. Sometimes it's one or the other and sometimes both come at the same time. In its extreme forms I have a complete somatic shutdown - can't hear, can't move, can't speak - just go completely inward yet am consciously aware. I have read that during times of trauma, especially as children when our brains are still developing, actual physical changes occur on the right side of the brain in regions that regulate sensory integration. How does someone counteract that??

So, I tried it out. I have a very difficult time in grocery stores, just as one example. I've been managing those trips with Ativan and that has helped. So, I went into the store, no Ativan on board, and just focused on my breathing and told myself I was safe - I even made up a corny little song to go with it, lol. But it helped - I still floated away a bit, and had to use my usual grounding skills to bring myself back, but it wasn't as bad as it usually is.

But to not do it at all? It's not something I'd ever even considered - not that I try to dissociate, of course - but it's always been something that just "happens" to me, since I was child.

Any thoughts about this??

Amandalouise - is this something you've ever asked of your clients? I will discuss this with my therapist today, I'm just curious about your thoughts.

Thanks -

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by dragonfly2

Hi everyone -

I've just gone through both an inpatient and partial hospitalization stay and one of the therapists challenged me to do something both scary and interesting. She challenged me to remove dissociation as a coping mechanism. She understands that it is not something I "choose" to do on a conscious level, but still asked me to change my approach from "managing it" to taking it off the table completely. I'm not even sure this is possible.

Some background: I have Depersonalization Disorder and suffer from both depersonalization and derealization. Sometimes it's one or the other and sometimes both come at the same time. In its extreme forms I have a complete somatic shutdown - can't hear, can't move, can't speak - just go completely inward yet am consciously aware. I have read that during times of trauma, especially as children when our brains are still developing, actual physical changes occur on the right side of the brain in regions that regulate sensory integration. How does someone counteract that??

So, I tried it out. I have a very difficult time in grocery stores, just as one example. I've been managing those trips with Ativan and that has helped. So, I went into the store, no Ativan on board, and just focused on my breathing and told myself I was safe - I even made up a corny little song to go with it, lol. But it helped - I still floated away a bit, and had to use my usual grounding skills to bring myself back, but it wasn't as bad as it usually is.

But to not do it at all? It's not something I'd ever even considered - not that I try to dissociate, of course - but it's always been something that just "happens" to me, since I was child.

Any thoughts about this??

Amandalouise - is this something you've ever asked of your clients? I will discuss this with my therapist today, I'm just curious about your thoughts.

Thanks -

It is a standard therapy question to ask the client to think about how their symptom or disorder impacts their life and ask them to change their thinking around how much their symptom or disorder incompacitates, affects their life by willfully removing that symptom or disorder from their life...

example

if a persons symptom that makes them more depressed is watching sad movies... consciously say this movie will make me sad theres no room for this in my life so Im going to watch an uplifting bright movie instead...

in dissociative disorders this therapy approach means asknig the client to use the tools they are being taught ...grounding, DBT, CBT what ever positive tool they have been taught over using the negative dissociating and not facing their problems..

therapy is all about facing your problems and finding better more positive ways to handle you, your problems and life..

that said yes I have asked my dissociative clients to use the tool they are being taught over running away from , ignoring and not dealing with their problems.. I would not be a good therapist if I didnt.

and on the personal side of the coin my treatment providers have done the same to me .. asked me to stop relying on the negative coping tools of dissociating and use the positive tools like grounding that they have taught me.. they would not be doing their job with me if they didnt.

[Bmee2]

So Amandalouise, can we just decide to stop dissociating? So we can think our way out of the box?
confused.
Sorry i not understand. No rely...notice when it is done must be a first correct? What must be asked to catch the dissociation before it happens?

If I could choose to stop dissociating, why, in all these miserable years wouldn't I have done that?
I don't understand how this works.... Now I feel more like a fraud than ever. I'm confused .

[dragonfly2]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

in dissociative disorders this therapy approach means asknig the client to use the tools they are being taught ...grounding, DBT, CBT what ever positive tool they have been taught over using the negative dissociating and not facing their problems..

Thanks for this. I guess I have been doing at least this much - trying to stay focused and grounded in the first place, sitting with the uncomfortable feelings, and trying to pull myself out of the DP/DR when it does happen, but I consider that "managing" it and I'm not always successful. She wants me to not even allow it at all. I guess it's just going to take some practice (lots and lots and lots of practice, lol).

And I hope my question didn't upset anyone. To me it still seems like something akin to my bipolar episodes - something I am working toward managing, yet really doesn't seem to be completely in my control. Maybe I need to start thinking differently about the dissociation piece of things.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Bmee2

So Amandalouise, can we just decide to stop dissociating? So we can think our way out of the box?
confused.
Sorry i not understand. No rely...notice when it is done must be a first correct? What must be asked to catch the dissociation before it happens?

no one can stop dissociating at the normal levels. Dissociating ie daydreaming, pretending, imagining, use of imagry, self hypnotic like staring while thinking of things not the task at hand... all these acts of dissociating cant be prevented.. a person can redirect their their self when they notice they have been using normal dissociation ie redirecting their thoughts during daydreaming back tothe task at hand..

can people stop dissociating at the abnormal levels on the scales of dissociation yes they can. Ie

once a person is using grounding and other tools they can choose to redirect their self from feeling spaced out (dissociation) to being back grounded in reality.

a person can choose whether they want to continue to remain floating outside their bodies or use grounding and get back in touch with their bodies.

a person can choose whether they want to stay numb or do something that will get them in touch with their bodies again ( this one is how many self injurers use their self injury acts.. they feel numb so they do their preferred self injury action so that instead of feeling numb they feel pain, feel alive and in touch with their bodies again)

there are many positive and negative ways in which people can choose to dissociate or reground their self and get back in touch with the present here and now..

one of my ways to not dissociate is by going for a ride around the lake in my canoe when I notice Im feeling out of touch with my body and whats going on around me. the feel of the oars in my hands and the resistance of the water, nature noises and sights all bring me back to being grounded with in my body and mind.

dont get me wrong for some people it isnt as easy as ok today Im not going to dissociate. for some people it does take time to learn all the tools that will help them to remain grounded.

for others it is just a matter of redirecting their thoughts and patterns of thinking that will give them control over abnormal dissociation.

each person has their own healing process and ways in which they deal with life, triggers, stress, their past, their present...

some can choose to not dissociate and others cant just like some can choose to integrate and others cant...

one very good example of the diversity of this issue - whether people can just stop dissociating or not is read the posts here on Psych Central.. notice how some people can choose whether they let their alters out or not..

some can pick and choose when its ok for them to dissociate (let their alters out around the therapist or friends) and others cant /dont.

there are many people here that do choose to hide their diagnosis and alters from people by choosing not to dissociate during time with their therapist or friends.

yes it is possible to just choose not to dissociate.

what will give you this ability to choose when to dissociate and when not to... it takes knowing yourself and your system and having the tools like grounding, and other tools that work with your triggers.. example if you dissociate during anxiety ridden times then anti anxiety meds will give some people the control you need. others need a combo of things like meds for their anxiety, meds for their depression and grounding techniques that will help them get back in touch with their self and their bodies...

the way to find out what works for you is take time to notice how you feel, what triggers you....

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Calista+12

If I could choose to stop dissociating, why, in all these miserable years wouldn't I have done that?
I don't understand how this works.... Now I feel more like a fraud than ever. I'm confused .

dissociation happens for many reasons and has many reasons why someone can or cant stop doing it. it is a very complicated thing.

even though there are some people that can just decide one day to stop dissociating and follow through with that very easily doesnt mean you are a fraud. it just means you still have work to do in order to understand how and why you dissociate, what triggers you to dissociate and then after you know all that you and your treatment providers will be able to make a plan that will help you to have more control over your dissociating. for some people it takes years and years to learn all they need to in order to have control over their dissociation problems.. give yourself some time.. when its time it will happen for you.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by dragonfly2

Thanks for this. I guess I have been doing at least this much - trying to stay focused and grounded in the first place, sitting with the uncomfortable feelings, and trying to pull myself out of the DP/DR when it does happen, but I consider that "managing" it and I'm not always successful. She wants me to not even allow it at all. I guess it's just going to take some practice (lots and lots and lots of practice, lol).

And I hope my question didn't upset anyone. To me it still seems like something akin to my bipolar episodes - something I am working toward managing, yet really doesn't seem to be completely in my control. Maybe I need to start thinking differently about the dissociation piece of things.

yes lots and lots of practice. It will get easier as you go along.. looks like you have a great start / foundation for this work by already trying to pull yourself out of the DP/DR...

some people call it "managing" others call it "working on it" others call it grounding... theres lots of words for what you do..

you are doing some fantastic work there.

Originally Posted by dragonfly2

Thanks for this. I guess I have been doing at least this much - trying to stay focused and grounded in the first place, sitting with the uncomfortable feelings, and trying to pull myself out of the DP/DR when it does happen, but I consider that "managing" it and I'm not always successful. She wants me to not even allow it at all. I guess it's just going to take some practice (lots and lots and lots of practice, lol).

And I hope my question didn't upset anyone. To me it still seems like something akin to my bipolar episodes - something I am working toward managing, yet really doesn't seem to be completely in my control. Maybe I need to start thinking differently about the dissociation piece of things.

Not upset...just confused. I hope this works out well for you, even though I don't quite understand. Maybe there's a difference because you don't have DID? I DO wish you lots of luck.

[Cotton ball]

What is the difference between self-presevation and dissaosciation?
I am not familar with this disorder...however I think I might have some issues due to a tramatic situation I lived through...as well as some boundary issues...protecting myself.
I've noticied I just shut down. Remove myself from situations that could hurt me-open communication.
I have PTSD so maybe this could be part of it. ??
I don't know.. I don't want to intrude but I have just realized my complete capacity to shut down...run...ignore...
Is this the same thing. I don't like this...

[Perna]

Originally Posted by dragonfly2

So, I tried it out.

but it wasn't as bad as it usually is.

But to not do it at all?

It will take "practice". It's a new skill, working toward not dissociating versus the "habit" of allowing it. Next time it might be easier still since you did better this last try. After all, you have your theme song in place. . .

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Cotton ball

What is the difference between self-presevation and dissaosciation?
I am not familar with this disorder...however I think I might have some issues due to a tramatic situation I lived through...as well as some boundary issues...protecting myself.
I've noticied I just shut down. Remove myself from situations that could hurt me-open communication.
I have PTSD so maybe this could be part of it. ??
I don't know.. I don't want to intrude but I have just realized my complete capacity to shut down...run...ignore...
Is this the same thing. I don't like this...

trigger is for violence content

here where I live and work self preservation is fighting to survive at all costs.-

a person in a domestic violence situation may grab an object to fight with to protect herself from harm

someone out on the streets may take up a knife / gun or rock to fight with to protect their self from harm.

fight or flight system can also be seen as a self preservation tool where a person instinctually fights or runs when under threat of harm..

here where I live dis association is where you remove yourself from participating.. you dis associate yourself from the glee club, you dis associate yourself from the street gang, you dis associate your self from your job.

if instead you meant the word Dissociation which is different than disassociation -

dissociation is an act of self preservation - its an instinctual action your brain takes to protect yourself from harm.

in other words self preservation is a cover all word for anything you do to protect yourself from harm and dissociation is one example of self preservation .

kind of like dissociative disorders is a cover term for many dissociative problems and DID is one example of a dissociative disorder.

yes PTSD does sometimes carry dissociative symptoms with in that disorder.

[dragonfly2]

Originally Posted by Calista+12

Not upset...just confused. I hope this works out well for you, even though I don't quite understand. Maybe there's a difference because you don't have DID? I DO wish you lots of luck.

I'm sure that's a big part of it. Even at its worst, when I completely shutdown, I am still aware on some conscious level. It's sort of what I imagine complete sensory deprivation would feel like - reduced to nothing but thought. So, whereas, in my understanding of DID, once you dissociate and an alter comes out, you are somewhat at the mercy of the alter to decide when you are able to come out of it (not sure where co-consciousness comes in here). No matter how far gone I am, I can still use my coping skills to try to pull out of it and there are times when it is a gradual thing in its milder forms and I can sometimes catch it before it happens. The total shutdowns are harder to catch because they happen very quickly.

I hope that helps a little.

[Bmee2]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

no one can stop dissociating at the normal levels. Dissociating ie daydreaming, pretending, imagining, use of imagry, self hypnotic like staring while thinking of things not the task at hand... all these acts of dissociating cant be prevented.. a person can redirect their their self when they notice they have been using normal dissociation ie redirecting their thoughts during daydreaming back tothe task at hand..

can people stop dissociating at the abnormal levels on the scales of dissociation yes they can. Ie

once a person is using grounding and other tools they can choose to redirect their self from feeling spaced out (dissociation) to being back grounded in reality.

a person can choose whether they want to continue to remain floating outside their bodies or use grounding and get back in touch with their bodies.

a person can choose whether they want to stay numb or do something that will get them in touch with their bodies again ( this one is how many self injurers use their self injury acts.. they feel numb so they do their preferred self injury action so that instead of feeling numb they feel pain, feel alive and in touch with their bodies again)

there are many positive and negative ways in which people can choose to dissociate or reground their self and get back in touch with the present here and now..

one of my ways to not dissociate is by going for a ride around the lake in my canoe when I notice Im feeling out of touch with my body and whats going on around me. the feel of the oars in my hands and the resistance of the water, nature noises and sights all bring me back to being grounded with in my body and mind.

dont get me wrong for some people it isnt as easy as ok today Im not going to dissociate. for some people it does take time to learn all the tools that will help them to remain grounded.

for others it is just a matter of redirecting their thoughts and patterns of thinking that will give them control over abnormal dissociation.

each person has their own healing process and ways in which they deal with life, triggers, stress, their past, their present...

some can choose to not dissociate and others cant just like some can choose to integrate and others cant...

one very good example of the diversity of this issue - whether people can just stop dissociating or not is read the posts here on Psych Central.. notice how some people can choose whether they let their alters out or not..

some can pick and choose when its ok for them to dissociate (let their alters out around the therapist or friends) and others cant /dont.

there are many people here that do choose to hide their diagnosis and alters from people by choosing not to dissociate during time with their therapist or friends.

yes it is possible to just choose not to dissociate.

what will give you this ability to choose when to dissociate and when not to... it takes knowing yourself and your system and having the tools like grounding, and other tools that work with your triggers.. example if you dissociate during anxiety ridden times then anti anxiety meds will give some people the control you need. others need a combo of things like meds for their anxiety, meds for their depression and grounding techniques that will help them get back in touch with their self and their bodies...

the way to find out what works for you is take time to notice how you feel, what triggers you....

Thank you amandalouise.
got so scared there was something else that we did incorrectly. Perhaps the help we need we have not been able to find. Struggle we do to talk to T but just cannot vomit the past pain and hurt. Such trouble talking for years. Ask the Med-T for probing but reply was what questions to ask.
Repeatedly we ask for help talking but passive listening is what we have gotten.
Cry we do because talking we are but not hearing is happening because close attention is not there by T. Waiting for the feelings and past to just be spoken but...tears of frustrations similar to that of someone like Helen Keller, trying to communicate but failing miserably. Oh so tired. Just exhausted trying to find a way to get better.

[Rosie23]

Wow. Thank you Amandalouise. I didn't even know I needed all that explained. Very helpful.

And I most certainly chose when to dissociate. And I can guarantee you that not one person, friend, family or doctor of any kind knows that I do it. It is a coping skill that I learned as a small child and after a lifetime of abuse and trauma there are days that it is the only way I can cope.

It makes me feel better though to know that I am not alone with my journey to not resort to this to get through a difficult time.

[purple_fins]

I like amandalouise's explanatory post about choosing or not to dissociate.

I seem to not have that power but I'm presently working on having it-- I didn't used to know I even dissociated but now am becoming more and more aware of it-- after the fact. but-- I figure that's a step in the "choosing" direction. As, now I can look back and sometimes learn what happened BEFORE, that resulted in the "checking out". so, I'm working, with help of course, on the tools to use when a similar situation arises, in hopes I can better cope with the upsetting/stressful situation.

Rosie23 : And I can guarantee you that not one person, friend, family or doctor of any kind knows that I do it.

Gee, I think you are fortunate, in that anyway. I seemed to be the only one that didn't know I did/do that.-- which is what I so hate!.. can't count how many times my family has called me "bubble brain"... "so smart you're stupid".... and feel like a deer caught in the headlights.... *sigh*.... it's been so embarrassing. I think it's partly(amongst other reasons) what's kept me to myself. I so don't want to make a friend(if i ever have one) feel hurt if I have no memory of some time we supposedly shared together.

I SO want to have that power-- choosing, I hope I'm working towards that, I hope.

fins

[Rosie23]

I get all the bubble brain stuff too. People look at me sometimes like I have 2 heads.

I have never tried to explain it. I can be walking down the street and I'm not really there. I am floating off to the side watching. My body is going through all the motions and the things I am doing are on auto pilot. But that person doesn't have much or any emotion. Kinda robotic.
But there is another me that is detached and watching all of it.

But I can, in a heartbeat, put on a game face if I have to. I learned it as a kid and it is self preservation only. But sometimes I really wish someone would notice. But nobody ever has. Not when I was a kid, not now.

Stress is a huge trigger for it.