There those that says there are and those that say there are not.

As far as we know, a babies brain isn't integrated to the age of 5. And of course, through trauma/abuse, integration doesn't happen leaving the mind in parts of which then grows into others, and as more parts are needed, more emerge.

To me, this means a single full personality has not yet developed- ergo, no real birth personality. A baby is a baby, a living organism yet to develop into a whole person by integration.

I only ask this because we have no set personality, or a dominate one. We have no one that can be singled out as "original" or "main".

We each had to act like one person. It was so hard and tiring to pretend to be someone that you are not for years in fear of being labeled weird- it didn't go well.

What do you think?

Good question! I don't think there is in me, a 'birth personality'. BUT - I do have a high level of grief for the person I would have been, if my childhood had been different. I do feel like that loss is a palpable personality.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by AlwaysChanging2

There those that says there are and those that say there are not.

As far as we know, a babies brain isn't integrated to the age of 5. And of course, through trauma/abuse, integration doesn't happen leaving the mind in parts of which then grows into others, and as more parts are needed, more emerge.

To me, this means a single full personality has not yet developed- ergo, no real birth personality. A baby is a baby, a living organism yet to develop into a whole person by integration.

I only ask this because we have no set personality, or a dominate one. We have no one that can be singled out as "original" or "main".

We each had to act like one person. It was so hard and tiring to pretend to be someone that you are not for years in fear of being labeled weird- it didn't go well.

What do you think?

here in my location and with in my culture it is believed a person is born one whole person at birth. human beings naturally do have parts to what makes up their personality (example their thoughts, their memories, their emotions, their ability to process those emotions,....)

here in my location it is believed a persons personality is fully integrated at birth (it has been documented that new born babies can cry, smile, remember their parents voices, faces, have their own thoughts, moods, emotions...) everything that makes up what a persons personality is, its all there documented through the medical and mental tests new born babies are accessed for during the first few hours\days of their life in the hospital nursery.

then through extreme trauma a persons personality (their thoughts, their emotions, their memories, their moods, ability to laugh and cry and feel...) get torn a part (dissociated) and contained with in alternate personalities.

here in my location it is believed there is an original whole personality in which the alternate personalities were created from...

example there had to be the normal integrated personality that included having the ability to cry, in order for that ability to cry to be separated and formed into an alternate personality called Rainy. if I hadnt had the ability to cry at birth then there would have been no ability to cry that formed the alter Rainy. its like you cant just reach up and grab something out of thin air that isnt already there to begin with...my therapist explained it this way...take a piece of white clay and turn it into green clay. it wont happen because there is nothing green to add to it. but if you have a box of clay that has yellow and blue already in the box you can make the color green the human body is like that. the mind already has all the components fully integrated, its just that through the act of dissociation those components are taken apart (like removing two colors from the box of clay) and put together in a new way to form a separate identity (breaking off pieces of each of the yellow and blue lumps of clay then putting those smaller lumps together to form one colored clay.) if the yellow and blue components were not already there there was no way to make the green one. and after the new identity is formed (the green clay) off to the side is still a portion of the yellow and blue original lumps of clay the green one was formed from.

its also believed in my location that there is always someone where inside an original. sometimes that original personality is so traumatized that the alters dont have access to them. that the original is so traumatized that they are tucked safely below the surface. but with enough healing that original one slowly surfaces because it is safe to do so.

anyway thats what my location and culture believe and has been shown through our mental health statistics. to find out what your location and statistics show you can contact any mental health agency in your location. you dont even have to tell them its for your own personal mental problems. many people here just call in and say they are doing a school paper. mental health agencies are always willing to help out those doing school papers.

we have one but she is long gone at least thats what we believe to be true.

[finding_my_way]

i have read a lot of different things specific to DID not necessarily about an original/birth personality (though what i have read on it depends on the person/system, etc. as to if one does exist).

i have read a few different things about the age in which a child is more prone to develop DID, the first was under age 9, then under age 7 and then some say it is even younger.

for myself, i believe my trauma started around five years old but was on and off until i was 11 years old. in saying that though, my trauma could have first started at birth because i was born very early and had a lot of medical stuff in my first few months of life that could have contributed.

again though, i think it all depends on the person. for a while, i did not know who i was, if i was the original...and i have come to the conclusion that it must be me. i spent a lot of my childhood and adult life until just a few years ago being severely dissociated. it took the last few for me to be more present and start to piece things together more where it used to be very fragmented and confusing.

what also confuses me about the age limit they set on children who develop DID is the imagination aspect and at what age that ability lessens. i can remember at 11 playing with an alter (as i did when i was younger but maybe thought some were just imaginary friends or something). i thought by 11, the imagination aspect is gone in a lot of children.

i have been doing a lot of i guess natural internal integration and work without knowing it the last few years. some things just kind of came together. sometimes, i do still get lost in it all and forget 'who' i am among it. so, sometimes it confuses me all over again.

even in a person without trauma though, things evolve and change to such a degree that no one probably would be able to identify as being that baby.

i can only assume i am because that is what i identify with as name, birth date, etc. and early life memories...but i know i'm not the same as i was at younger ages either since it doesn't generally work that way, so it's hard to know that too since other parts of me have always existed too and i don't know which ones might have been more present than me as a child.

Originally Posted by finding_my_way

i have read a lot of different things specific to DID not necessarily about an original/birth personality (though what i have read on it depends on the person/system, etc. as to if one does exist).

i have read a few different things about the age in which a child is more prone to develop DID, the first was under age 9, then under age 7 and then some say it is even younger.

for myself, i believe my trauma started around five years old but was on and off until i was 11 years old. in saying that though, my trauma could have first started at birth because i was born very early and had a lot of medical stuff in my first few months of life that could have contributed.

again though, i think it all depends on the person. for a while, i did not know who i was, if i was the original...and i have come to the conclusion that it must be me. i spent a lot of my childhood and adult life until just a few years ago being severely dissociated. it took the last few for me to be more present and start to piece things together more where it used to be very fragmented and confusing.

what also confuses me about the age limit they set on children who develop DID is the imagination aspect and at what age that ability lessens. i can remember at 11 playing with an alter (as i did when i was younger but maybe thought some were just imaginary friends or something). i thought by 11, the imagination aspect is gone in a lot of children.

i have been doing a lot of i guess natural internal integration and work without knowing it the last few years. some things just kind of came together. sometimes, i do still get lost in it all and forget 'who' i am among it. so, sometimes it confuses me all over again.

even in a person without trauma though, things evolve and change to such a degree that no one probably would be able to identify as being that baby.

i can only assume i am because that is what i identify with as name, birth date, etc. and early life memories...but i know i'm not the same as i was at younger ages either since it doesn't generally work that way, so it's hard to know that too since other parts of me have always existed too and i don't know which ones might have been more present than me as a child.

Could that be it then? When others claim to have an original or main, it's because trauma or abuse happened later in life then in the birthing years?
Maybe that's why it didn't make sense. I'm told that I was a naughty baby and I'd get licks with a wooden spoon. This continued till I was 12, but my father started when I was 6 and heavy handed me and beat and terrorized me till I was 18.

Originally Posted by amandalouise

here in my location and with in my culture it is believed a person is born one whole person at birth. human beings naturally do have parts to what makes up their personality (example their thoughts, their memories, their emotions, their ability to process those emotions,....)

here in my location it is believed a persons personality is fully integrated at birth (it has been documented that new born babies can cry, smile, remember their parents voices, faces, have their own thoughts, moods, emotions...) everything that makes up what a persons personality is, its all there documented through the medical and mental tests new born babies are accessed for during the first few hours\days of their life in the hospital nursery.

then through extreme trauma a persons personality (their thoughts, their emotions, their memories, their moods, ability to laugh and cry and feel...) get torn a part (dissociated) and contained with in alternate personalities.

here in my location it is believed there is an original whole personality in which the alternate personalities were created from...

example there had to be the normal integrated personality that included having the ability to cry, in order for that ability to cry to be separated and formed into an alternate personality called Rainy. if I hadnt had the ability to cry at birth then there would have been no ability to cry that formed the alter Rainy. its like you cant just reach up and grab something out of thin air that isnt already there to begin with...my therapist explained it this way...take a piece of white clay and turn it into green clay. it wont happen because there is nothing green to add to it. but if you have a box of clay that has yellow and blue already in the box you can make the color green the human body is like that. the mind already has all the components fully integrated, its just that through the act of dissociation those components are taken apart (like removing two colors from the box of clay) and put together in a new way to form a separate identity (breaking off pieces of each of the yellow and blue lumps of clay then putting those smaller lumps together to form one colored clay.) if the yellow and blue components were not already there there was no way to make the green one. and after the new identity is formed (the green clay) off to the side is still a portion of the yellow and blue original lumps of clay the green one was formed from.

its also believed in my location that there is always someone where inside an original. sometimes that original personality is so traumatized that the alters dont have access to them. that the original is so traumatized that they are tucked safely below the surface. but with enough healing that original one slowly surfaces because it is safe to do so.

anyway thats what my location and culture believe and has been shown through our mental health statistics. to find out what your location and statistics show you can contact any mental health agency in your location. you dont even have to tell them its for your own personal mental problems. many people here just call in and say they are doing a school paper. mental health agencies are always willing to help out those doing school papers.

Thanks Amanda for that explanation. I don't know where I got that conception...it's a blank.
It sounds like a medical point of view, not sure. It's like that study doesn't even exist because I can't find it now. I'm going to keep looking though.

Only reason I ask though is because I've never known us to have an original. Our abuse began as soon as I was able to walk. According to my mother, we was a naughty baby. Spankings with a wooden spoon and flat handed leaving hand shapes was the norm till I was 12. She degraded us and yelled at us while saying I love you. She left raised red whelts that stung for hours, tender to the touch.

My father was heavy handed that ruled with a 2 inch black leather belt. Through terror, threats, hate, intimidation, ridicule, and bullying , I lived till I escaped at graduation a ruined individual.

For family abuse, this ranked right up there next to RA.

So, having an original is so like not.

I'm just trying to understand myself. Why? I'm just curious that way. I hate being ignorant.

[coldwut]

If your abuse started early, then it makes sense for you to split, or for your parts to not become fully integrated depending on who you ask (when it comes to whether or not a baby is already fully integrated).

Since you stated that the abuse started at a young age, that could make the fact that you have no host possible.

Some don't really have a host, or main person that fronts.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense.

I found the things I've been looking at, even a book about it. The case studies are in the field of Neuroscience complete with MRI images of dfferent brain activity in switches.

Neurobiology and Treatment of Traumatic Dissociation: Towards an Embodied Self
By Ulrich F. Lanius PhD, Sandra L. Paulsen PhD, Frank M. Corrigan MD

https://books.google.com/books?id=0i...iative&f=false

Basically, it says when a caregiver relationship can't be established, the resulting trauma affects the child to switch smoothly through affective states.

"When affective states cannot integrate appropriately in the stabilization effect of the mother-child relationship, the hard wired subcortical affective circuit cannot integrate appropriately in the context of secondary brain processing related to relationship templates.....this results in a lack of integration across states through maladaptive state-dependent learning and disruptive affective circuits....failure to acquire smooth state shifting and resultant acquisition of habits of state switching instead is a foundation for subsequent development of affect dysregulation and dissocative disorders..."

Stuff like that.

It's a more complicated way of saying trauma causes dissociative disorders.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by AlwaysChanging2

I found the things I've been looking at, even a book about it. The case studies are in the field of Neuroscience complete with MRI images of dfferent brain activity in switches.

Neurobiology and Treatment of Traumatic Dissociation: Towards an Embodied Self
By Ulrich F. Lanius PhD, Sandra L. Paulsen PhD, Frank M. Corrigan MD

https://books.google.com/books?id=0i...iative&f=false

Basically, it says when a caregiver relationship can't be established, the resulting trauma affects the child to switch smoothly through affective states.

"When affective states cannot integrate appropriately in the stabilization effect of the mother-child relationship, the hard wired subcortical affective circuit cannot integrate appropriately in the context of secondary brain processing related to relationship templates.....this results in a lack of integration across states through maladaptive state-dependent learning and disruptive affective circuits....failure to acquire smooth state shifting and resultant acquisition of habits of state switching instead is a foundation for subsequent development of affect dysregulation and dissocative disorders..."

Stuff like that.

It's a more complicated way of saying trauma causes dissociative disorders.

I see what you are getting at...here in my location this does not mean a baby doesnt have an "original" or birth personality.

here in my location a self is not an alternate personality. the self is the sum of that persons consciousness and unconsciousness, memories, experiences, thoughts feelings, emotions, all of this combined makes up a persons self..

example of a self in a new born baby would be what they see when they are born, what they hear when they are born what they dream about, what they think about. being hungry, being wet, ...the brain controls all of this through electric impulses. all these things together forms that baby's "self" under normal situations babies ....learn ...how to regulate (control ) these things

now lets add the link information...

when a baby doesnt bond\attach to their parents, because of going through trauma it affects how they react, think, dream,..in short they have learned to regulate a different way.

this in turn causes the human being (in this case a baby) to dissociate \shut off\shut down (the text word for this in the link is truncation)

this leads the human being (in this case the baby) to switch into and out of each of their parts of self (what I listed above) but because of the trauma each of these parts of self are now dissociated from each other, no longer connected.

as the human being continues to use their dissociative skills those parts of self eventually evolve into alternate personalities.

[Kiya]

ours was put away fro safe keeping. then we met the adult version of her and she was here for aa while and then they merged and both went away somewheres

Originally Posted by amandalouise

I see what you are getting at...here in my location this does not mean a baby doesnt have an "original" or birth personality.

here in my location a self is not an alternate personality. the self is the sum of that persons consciousness and unconsciousness, memories, experiences, thoughts feelings, emotions, all of this combined makes up a persons self..

example of a self in a new born baby would be what they see when they are born, what they hear when they are born what they dream about, what they think about. being hungry, being wet, ...the brain controls all of this through electric impulses. all these things together forms that baby's "self" under normal situations babies ....learn ...how to regulate (control ) these things

now lets add the link information...

when a baby doesnt bond\attach to their parents, because of going through trauma it affects how they react, think, dream,..in short they have learned to regulate a different way.

this in turn causes the human being (in this case a baby) to dissociate \shut off\shut down (the text word for this in the link is truncation)

this leads the human being (in this case the baby) to switch into and out of each of their parts of self (what I listed above) but because of the trauma each of these parts of self are now dissociated from each other, no longer connected.

as the human being continues to use their dissociative skills those parts of self eventually evolve into alternate personalities.

Thank you very much, you nailed it. I was havinging difficulty bringing the 2 perspectives together. I should of kept going to school...

i honestly feel their isn't at times.

a lot of the time i just feel like the person who's alive and stuff, who owns the body, but that's all.

that's as far as it goes...

can't think of a better way to describe it