State Dependent Memory? ANP and EP issue, I think.

This is a post I typed on another thread. I wanted to break it out and post it as a new thread, and see if this is something someone else has experienced or understands.

-----------------------

Well. There was a very real moment tonight with my counselor. Got there and walked in, things felt and seemed off and weird. I asked him if anything was different. Did he change anything. The space that I remembered being in just felt off. Different. We talked and finally zeroed in on his chair that he was sitting in. It didn't seem right. I was looking at it but it was not right. Can't explain.

He thinks for a minute and asked me if the chair that I thought I was remembering was bigger and darker. Yes. Yes it was. He said that he changed chairs out about a year ago and showed me a picture of the chair that he had earlier. That was it!! That's what felt off.

Not sure what to make of that...... I want to see if he keeps a record/journal/notes about what we talk about each session and see what we talked about around that time last year. Curious if that's possible.

We talked about ANP and EP parts. He understands and actually sees it that way!!

---------------------

Thinking now, it really wouldn't matter if it was a year ago. It would have been a "state dependent" issue. By that I am meaning, it would have been a visual memory of a session that that part of me was there? Would it be what we were talking about or something else?

I hope this doesn't sound "out there" but there is something there!!

Anybody else experience anything like this?

Yes I have, many times!
Examples: we have lived in different countries. Every now and then (not often, but enough for it to be a recognizable 'thing' with me) a different part of me seems to be looking through my eyes and feeling great confusion about where we are. So sometimes this means that I might be internally reeling about suddenly 'noticing' that I am in 'x' country... when the reality is we have been in 'x' country for several years.
Another time a family member arrived and I was confused about his car... couldn't figure out why he had a different one. (The car 'I' was expecting was the one he had like, 30 years ago).
Another time 'I' was in therapy when I suddenly freaked out that I was in a different country, believing I was in 'y' country instead.
I think these are all similar to what you experienced, yes? I view it as some internal part of self peeking out after a period of time (long time, one month, one year, one decade, it's all the same really) and being aware that the outer environment has changed.
It is... disconcerting!

Thank you Luce for the examples you shared. This part seemed very true to me. I don't know how to piece it together or what it means. I don't even know what to call it.

We talked a lot during the session time. It was me but didn't feel like ALL me. I took the "pieces of me" (poster stars with different parts of me labeled on them) and spread them out on the floor. I rearranged them as my mind saw them and we talked about it. I did feel 12ish and I think I talked more freely than I usually do. I'm not remembering the whole time fluidly.

I gave in and emailed him this afternoon because I just don't feel like myself and I was trying to figure this out. If I could understand it, maybe that might even out the weirdness I'm feeling. I don't know, it could make it worse I guess.

I am probably making more out of it than it is. It's pretty strong in my mind though, so to me it is pretty intense.

Of course he couldn't say much through email because of privacy. I know he doesn't do counseling through email, I was really asking for somewhere to find information/knowledge about what happened.

State dependent memories may not be what I need to be looking for information on.

I don't know.

What's ANP and EP? Dissociation came up in therapy today...I dissociate sometimes, but not as badly as I did last Wed. Thought maybe I should be up on abbreviations...? Thanks~~

Sorting this out myself right now.

ANP is apparently normal personality. It's the parts of me that looks like everything is good and I'm ok. I'm in the moment and all is well.

EP is Emotional Part/personality. That's the part of me that numbs/flips out when something triggers me. It happens in the background of what other people see.

Don't know if that is helpful, but that's what it is for me.

I often have moments of confusion like that. I'm not sure what to call it, or how to really explain it, but I have heard of state dependant memory.

Hi trailrunner, I like what Luce said about a part peeking out and being disoriented because of the time lapse and change in chair. Maybe it's not so much what you had been discussing with your therapist a year ago, so much as what had been happening just prior to feeling off during this recent session. Something triggered the part to come forward, either at the beginning of session o just prior (if you entered his office feeling off). At least, that's how my therapist approaches things--identifying triggers for each one of us, working with that triggering material, and finding ways to calm the one that's come forward. But if it feels like knowing what you were talking about a year ago in your therapist's office will help, then go that route. It may turn out to be the same trigger and will confirm things. (I hope this makes sense--if not, disregard.)

within me this problem was not called state memory /anp/ep./ with in me my treatment providers called alters remembering differently than I did and then sharing those images, memories with me to where it felt uncomfortable / something is wrong by the terms developing co consciousness, integration, dissociative Amnesia, the alters sense of agency, distinctions, and other terms.

Yes! What you see makes absolute sense to me. When I walked in his office there was a curious feeling of "something's not right here" it wasn't a anxious panic feeling. Once we figured out what was "off" I think I felt a relaxed feeling, and it feels like I talked very freely. I didn't think any more of it, until I got home. Then, I just kept seeing the chair he was sitting in, in my mind. It kept building intensity and I went in search of an explanation to what I couldn't figure out.

My mind kept going to state dependent memory because I kept hearing him tell me that it was over a year ago that he had switched chairs. That doesn't make any connection now. I think that was a false lead.

I think you are right too about the part of me that was feeling disoriented. I'm thinking a conversation with my mom triggered me and that part came forward then, and stayed there through my session time. That would make sense. I guess when that part stepped back, whatever part was there, tried to figure it out and freaked out because it didn't understand. There is a part of me that is very analytical and does not like not being able to figure something out. That part is prone to "flip outs"

See! That makes complete sense. I'm so glad you guys are here! It wouldn't make complete sense to anyone else around here.

It still feels a little weird, but there is also a feeling of some understanding.

That's great detective work about the trigger (talking to your mom) and the dissonance with office furniture for whomever it was that came forward.

So now you can test to see if interactions with your mom (or interactions about the topic you were talking about) brings someone forward who is otherwise not very active, or is not usually out while you're in your therapist's office. (in this case, sounds like a year since they were out in your therapist's office?).

A lot of what I/we do is about locating those triggers and working back from there. In my case, it's because some who get triggered are causing a lot of problems for me in daily life, so figuring out who has moved forward, and why, gives our therapist and me something to work with. So, that's how it works for me. With you, it may be different, but it does sound like a triggering thing happened with the conversation you had with your mom.

That was it!

My conversation with my mom brought that part of me out/front/forward. It feels really weird saying that. But I witnessed it. So, I guess it is what it is.

It's so amazing how one thing can click into place and then it's click - click - click. The pieces come together. Then it makes sense. The flip out that gets me to the place, that things DO start clicking into place, is not a pleasant place to find myself. If I could learn how to bypass that point , that would be awesome!!

for ugly duckling... what is anp/ ep....

here in my location ANP stands for Apparently Normal Part and EP stands for Emotional Part...

here in my location it is believed among mental health system that all human beings have normal parts of self, anyone whether they are normal, mentally or physically challenged can have these parts of self.

here's a completely normal non dissociative situation....

Im in a meeting and someone says something I dont like. my mood switches from being happy go lucky, everythings fine to automatically reacting.... how dare you say that, that did not happen rant rant rant stomp out the door slamming the door. (emotional part of self) then i calm down and go back to appearing to be ok when a coworker walks up to me and says wow are you ok, and I smile and say yea just blowing off some steam I guess. (apparently normal part)

in some people this can happen related to dissociation.

here in my location dissociation is a normal response to a negative or positive trigger. using the same situation as above switching into these parts of self would be related to dissociation if during the situation I was feeling my dissociation symptoms of numbness, spaciness, and disconnected from myself or others. its like a severity thing.

in some people these switching into their ANP and EP parts are more distinct, defined. some locations call this Structural Dissociation\ polyfragmented Dissociative Disorder.

My own treatment provider does not use that term because America has changed over to a new listing of diagnosis's. America does not have a mental disorder called Polyfragmented Dissociative Disorder /Polyfragmented DID, here alters are now treated as equals.

but there are mental disorders now here in america that do include dissociative symptoms/disorders/ problems, which is where this ANP/EP\ structural dissociation model is still being used in my location for example with depression and PTSD, and in the personality category (borderline, advoidant and other personality disorders)

hope that has helped.

Good detective work there, TR! I find that things often fall into place.. sometimes it takes a while though. It's like detective work.... you have to know what IS a clue to start with, then do some sleuthing around until the picture starts to emerge.
Dissociation is an amazing thing.

Hey Ugly Ducky - here is a link that will give you more information about ANP and EP parts, specifically as they relate to the spectrum of dissociative disorders. Follow the links within the article to learn more about ANPs and EPs.
Structural Dissociation

Thank you Luce and Ruh Roh. You helped me sort it out. Man! It sure feels good when you get the pieces in the right place.

Dissociation is indeed an amazing thing! Amazing in more ways than one.

Here I go again.

I figured out what triggers it and sorted that out. There was peace.

Now. There is a feeling of not feeling like myself and wondering who the heck I am anyway. Things don't feel "normal" and I know normal is a weird word. Who has the gauge on what normal is. I'm just saying that is an uncomfortable feeling of not knowing what is me.

Does that make any sense at all?

Yes, it makes sense.

Thank you! If it's ok... now what?

I don't want to feel like this!

Maybe just ask yourself about it. Just ask, not really expecting an answer from yourself. Just wonder aloud... out loud. "What it happening?" "What is me? What is not me? What is this?"

I know that when reassociating memories //experiences or parts of self I would feel something - a flash back, a sensation, an emotion, and I wouldn't have any context or understanding of it. But over time it became clear and had a way of revealing itself to me.
So maybe try just being present with the feeling. Just acknowledge it and be curious about it. Accept it.
And see what happens.

Thank you! I will entertain it with curiosity.

It just occurred to me that I have shared much of myself unfiltered. I forget sometimes. It feels like I'm just talking with friends.

You are anonymous amongst anonymous friends here.

Yes, it makes sense.

Working on internal communication has been our first step, but it's slow going. At the same time, there are triggers and safety concerns (from people on the outside) that are pressing. It's a lot of work. This is a hard week because of the holiday and only one session.

Internal communication. That seems to be the issue going on.

There is a very strong analytical part of me that wants answers and knowledge to understand what's happening with me. That part feels like there would be safety and grounding in understanding. When that part of me is in full alert mode, it shuts down any communication that I have gotten before, from listening and journaling.

It's almost like the other parts of me are - maybe intimidated by it. ? Not sure if that's the right word. I'm trying to understand what it feels like I'm being shown. I can't journal or grasp it.

Ruh Roh, I hope your week is better than you are thinking it will be! I sure wish it wasn't such a long time until Monday to talk with my counselor again.