[Luce]

My new T is still in the process of EMDR training and I have been researching it online just to learn more about what it is and how it might help me. In the course of my research I discovered that in my country part of the current EMDR training involves a compulsory workshop on structural dissociation.
What I found especially fascinating was that although the website touched on primary, secondary and tertiary dissociation it did not once refer to DID.
I was really pleased to see that structural dissociation is now part of the mandatory training for EMDR therapists, and also pleased to see that structural dissociation is a way of 'normalizing DID' in a country where it has been shunned in recent decades.
Maybe it is easier for every day people to 'grasp' the concept of structural dissociation rather than embrace the controversy associated with the MPD / DID labels.
Seeing structural dissociation being a compulsory part of training in EMDR trauma therapy gives me hope.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Luce

My new T is still in the process of EMDR training and I have been researching it online just to learn more about what it is and how it might help me. In the course of my research I discovered that in my country part of the current EMDR training involves a compulsory workshop on structural dissociation.
What I found especially fascinating was that although the website touched on primary, secondary and tertiary dissociation it did not once refer to DID.
I was really pleased to see that structural dissociation is now part of the mandatory training for EMDR therapists, and also pleased to see that structural dissociation is a way of 'normalizing DID' in a country where it has been shunned in recent decades.
Maybe it is easier for every day people to 'grasp' the concept of structural dissociation rather than embrace the controversy associated with the MPD / DID labels.
Seeing structural dissociation being a compulsory part of training in EMDR trauma therapy gives me hope.

yea some places out side the USA call DID by other names than we have here in the USA, here we dont have to take classes in .. structural dissociation... because we dont have a poly fragmented system for DID now. here all alters are viewed as equal and complete regardless of how they came into being, whether they branched off from another alter or from the body born and all those other issues that other countries outside the USA go by.

it would actually be harder for me to grasp the concept of structural dissociation because that concept isnt used here in my location. if I was talking in those terms and ways that are taught in that model my therapists and psychiatrists would end up misdiagnosing me. especially if I used the the terms that are taught in that concept. example the term tertiary in my location means from the times of the dinosaurs.

since 2013, and the change over to the new system here in the USA, if I now used that term in relation to my dissociation my treatment providers would think I was psychotic/ out of touch with reality. see what I mean... its best to go according to ones own location. with things like this.

for those with in the USA here is what EMDR is in the USA...

http://www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/

and this is what the USA treatment providers go through in learning how to use EMDR with their clients here
http://www.emdr.com/us-basic-training-overview/

Im glad though that you and your location have finally found a therapy approach that works for you based on your own treatment plan and locations standards.

[TrailRunner14]

My counselor is also in the process of EMDR training. A part of me is really happy that he is. I've read a lot about it also, and it makes sense, left side - right side, and memory integration. For some reason it makes a part of me apprehensive of trying it. We talked about it, I think, last week and he asked me if I was open to it. I think.

Not sure why the apprehension. ?

I've heard the term "structural dissociation" before, but wasn't really sure what it was. I found his Power Point online and wanted to share it, with whoever would like to see it. It makes sense, I think.

http://www.estd.org/conferences/pres...der%20hart.pdf

On down toward the end, where it talks about D-Attachment, makes complete sense to me. The diagrams/personality maps are really interesting too.

[Out There]

I'm in the UK , my EMDR T is a consultant. I've read it involves hearing from the " alters " and I have younger " parts " which need to be heard from. I've had a lot of success with EMDR but I can understand why people are apprehensive.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by TrailRunner14

My counselor is also in the process of EMDR training. A part of me is really happy that he is. I've read a lot about it also, and it makes sense, left side - right side, and memory integration. For some reason it makes a part of me apprehensive of trying it. We talked about it, I think, last week and he asked me if I was open to it. I think.

Not sure why the apprehension. ?

I've heard the term "structural dissociation" before, but wasn't really sure what it was. I found his Power Point online and wanted to share it, with whoever would like to see it. It makes sense, I think.

http://www.estd.org/conferences/pres...der%20hart.pdf

On down toward the end, where it talks about D-Attachment, makes complete sense to me. The diagrams/personality maps are really interesting too.

yea I like that link, its what they go by in the Netherlands Belgium, Amsterdam.....) though not the USA so where I live and work (NY,USA) we dont use this model. great link though.

[finding_my_way]

it's interesting to see that some who do EMDR will do it with people who have DID. my psychiatrist does EMDR but won't do it with me. i think she explained that it can cause more issues with DID...like if there is stuff that comes up out of nowhere and floods me....but it probably also depends on the system and how they function. i would think if/when mine becomes more clear, more is known, etc. that maybe she would consider doing it with me, but she seems to use hypnotherapy/guided meditation over EMDR for DID (or just me maybe)...except we are still just doing talk therapy right now because that was a bit unsafe when we tried.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

yea some places out side the USA call DID by other names than we have here in the USA, here we dont have to take classes in .. structural dissociation... because we dont have a poly fragmented system for DID now. here all alters are viewed as equal and complete regardless of how they came into being, whether they branched off from another alter or from the body born and all those other issues that other countries outside the USA go by.

it would actually be harder for me to grasp the concept of structural dissociation because that concept isnt used here in my location. if I was talking in those terms and ways that are taught in that model my therapists and psychiatrists would end up misdiagnosing me. especially if I used the the terms that are taught in that concept. example the term tertiary in my location means from the times of the dinosaurs.

since 2013, and the change over to the new system here in the USA, if I now used that term in relation to my dissociation my treatment providers would think I was psychotic/ out of touch with reality. see what I mean... its best to go according to ones own location. with things like this.

for those with in the USA here is what EMDR is in the USA...

What is EMDR? | EMDR Institute ? EYE MOVEMENT DESENSITIZATION AND REPROCESSING THERAPY

and this is what the USA treatment providers go through in learning how to use EMDR with their clients here
US Basic Training Overview | EMDR Institute ? EYE MOVEMENT DESENSITIZATION AND REPROCESSING THERAPY

Im glad though that you and your location have finally found a therapy approach that works for you based on your own treatment plan and locations standards.

AL, there is plenty of research and knowledge coming out of the US about structural dissociation and a push for psychoeducation about it there in EMDR training as well.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by finding_my_way

it's interesting to see that some who do EMDR will do it with people who have DID. my psychiatrist does EMDR but won't do it with me. i think she explained that it can cause more issues with DID...like if there is stuff that comes up out of nowhere and floods me....but it probably also depends on the system and how they function. i would think if/when mine becomes more clear, more is known, etc. that maybe she would consider doing it with me, but she seems to use hypnotherapy/guided meditation over EMDR for DID (or just me maybe)...except we are still just doing talk therapy right now because that was a bit unsafe when we tried.

It seems there is an additional layer of training advised before doing EMDR with dissociative clients. From what I've read it seems the approach needs to be altered slightly. When searching I found that they are beginning to push for special training in structural dissociation in the US now as well.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by TrailRunner14

My counselor is also in the process of EMDR training. A part of me is really happy that he is. I've read a lot about it also, and it makes sense, left side - right side, and memory integration. For some reason it makes a part of me apprehensive of trying it. We talked about it, I think, last week and he asked me if I was open to it. I think.

Not sure why the apprehension. ?

I've heard the term "structural dissociation" before, but wasn't really sure what it was. I found his Power Point online and wanted to share it, with whoever would like to see it. It makes sense, I think.

http://www.estd.org/conferences/pres...der%20hart.pdf

On down toward the end, where it talks about D-Attachment, makes complete sense to me. The diagrams/personality maps are really interesting too.

I am terrified of trying it too! Although I am educating myself about it, because I think it will be able to help me and I really want to try it. I am going to go slowly with it though... and make sure that both my T and I are well prepared before diving into it.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

example the term tertiary in my location means from the times of the dinosaurs.

The word can also be used as an adjective denoting 'third' - even here in the United States.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by Luce

AL, there is plenty of research and knowledge coming out of the US about structural dissociation and a push for psychoeducation about it there in EMDR training as well.

yes I know the research and information is out there that isnt what I was getting at...

what I stated was that in my location treatment providers do not use the structural dissociation model for DID, due to the fact that we no longer have a poly fragmented system in place for treating DID.

by that I meant treatment providers no longer use the multi axial \ poly fragmented system of diagnosis. this was one where alters were ranked by how important they were in the system, whether they were first, second or third forth last..., whether they were fully formed or just an unimportant fragment that didnt matter. and ranked according to whether they sprung into being from the host (body born) or whether they sprung \ branched off from another alter. now we have a diagnosis system in place where it does not matter whether an alter is just a fragment or first or second or where they sprung into being from alter or host. now treatment providers here in the USA treat all alters as essential and important regardless.

I also stated in my locations treatment providers do not have to learn the structural dissociation model in doing EMDR.

then I posted what EMDR is in the USA and what treatment providers in the USA learn in their training to do EMDR.

again I wasnt saying the research isnt being done and isnt out there on the structural dissociation model. Just that its not being used in direct relationship to DID. it is being used for things like PTSD, borderline personality disorder and others here in my location but not directly with treating DID in my location.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by yagr

The word can also be used as an adjective denoting 'third' - even here in the United States.

yes i realize that. my statement was in regards to my own treatment provider and I and treatment providers that I know here in my own location which is in NY, USA.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by yagr

The word can also be used as an adjective denoting 'third' - even here in the United States.

I'm not understanding. ? Forgive me.

[Luce]

AL must have made a reference to the word 'tertiary' in the context of geology.
In the context of structural dissociation 'tertiary' refers to the dissociation not just of and ANP and several (or more) EPs, but several ANPs as well. That is... tertiary structural dissociation is what we see in DID.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by Luce

AL must have made a reference to the word 'tertiary' in the context of geology.
In the context of structural dissociation 'tertiary' refers to the dissociation not just of and ANP and several (or more) EPs, but several ANPs as well. That is... tertiary structural dissociation is what we see in DID.

Ok. Thank you!

I'm still trying to sort this out.

Im getting an understanding of ANP parts and EP parts and I would like very much to talk about that, but I don't want to skew this thread and it's topic of EMDR.

ETA: typo

[Luce]

No, it's okay - the structural dissociation thing was actually my main point. I was so pleased to see learning about it is now a required aspect of EMDR training in some countries now. Not only because it is the most in depth model of dissociation that we have, but because it brings all dissociative disorders back into mainstream psychology in a way that clinicians can relate to.
The controversies about multiple personality disorder and false memory syndrome did a lot of damage to the field in the 1990s... and outside of the mainstream psychology quite a few western countries largely rejected it all as mass hysteria emanating from the US.

The theory of structural dissociation has evolved separately from that and has been borne out of international collaboration - including people from the US - after years and years of research and clinical studies about trauma and dissociation. It is considered to be valid and is positively regarded and upheld internationally as the new benchmark for understanding trauma and dissociation. That isn't to say it is 'finished' however. It is still a developing field.

But what I love most is that in many countries it brings trauma and dissociation out of the 'fabricated' basket and back into the conversation. I personally am excited because I have tried to see quite a few Ts in this city to help me with my DID, but not a single one of that has had any clue. Now I know my new t has or will be getting training around structural dissociation, and tertiary structural dissociation is the theoretical model that 'explains' DID.

So.... there is hope for me yet!

[TrailRunner14]

Actually tonight I asked my counselor if he has heard of structural dissociation. He said he had not. He is so very open to hearing what I open up to him. I'm very thankful for that.

I asked him if I could send him the power point that I posted here earlier today. I got a lot from it. He said yes. So I'm going to do that.

Luce, if you checked it out, is it a good description from what you have read? I would like to send him a resource that describes it the most understandable and best way.

[Luce]

I did read it, and it was pretty good. I found some of it a little poorly laid out, but it had the gist of it. I have to do some work now, but i'll have a scout around and see if I can find anything later.

Here is someone who does training around EMDR and structural dissociation in NY: K. Martin Counseling & Consulting Services: Professional Training Opportunities

[Luce]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

yea some places out side the USA call DID by other names than we have here in the USA, here we dont have to take classes in .. structural dissociation... because we dont have a poly fragmented system for DID now. here all alters are viewed as equal and complete regardless of how they came into being, whether they branched off from another alter or from the body born and all those other issues that other countries outside the USA go by.

it would actually be harder for me to grasp the concept of structural dissociation because that concept isnt used here in my location. If I was talking in those terms and ways that are taught in that model my therapists and psychiatrists would end up misdiagnosing me. especially if I used the the terms that are taught in that concept. example the term tertiary in my location means from the times of the dinosaurs.

since 2013, and the change over to the new system here in the USA, if I now used that term in relation to my dissociation my treatment providers would think I was psychotic/ out of touch with reality. see what I mean... its best to go according to ones own location. with things like this.

for those with in the USA here is what EMDR is in the USA...

What is EMDR? | EMDR Institute ? EYE MOVEMENT DESENSITIZATION AND REPROCESSING THERAPY

and this is what the USA treatment providers go through in learning how to use EMDR with their clients here
US Basic Training Overview | EMDR Institute ? EYE MOVEMENT DESENSITIZATION AND REPROCESSING THERAPY

Im glad though that you and your location have finally found a therapy approach that works for you based on your own treatment plan and locations standards.

We call it DID here too. They didn't refer to DID in the website though - they just talked about structural dissociation - which is a theory, and not a diagnostic term. So it isn't that they call DID something different. Its name is DID and the theory behind it is structural dissociation. And it isn't really about polyfragmentation at all.
You say it would be hard for you to grasp the concept of structural dissociation, but you're a pretty intelligent person and I think you'll get it. It shouldn't take you too long.
I am horrified to think that your therapist and psychiatrist would misdiagnose you if you used words that relate to the theory of structural dissociation! That would be a gross misinterpretation of the DSM-V to misdiagnose a person based on their choice of vocabulary. Unless you're talking about Tourette's syndrome, of course. That could be different. But if any treatment provider tried to misdiagnose me for using words like 'tertiary' or 'dissociation' I can assure you I would be firing them for incompetence. For a treatment provider to think a person was psychotic because of a word they used in a rational and reasonable conversation is absolutely unfathomable.

[Luce]

TR, I found this one, which seems pretty good - especially to share with a counsellor. Follow the links to read more about primary, secondary and tertiary dissociation.

Structural Dissociation

Let us know what your counsellor thinks of it! I think I am going to ask my new T if I can share the link with her too.

And for the more academically minded... Trauma Information Pages, Articles: Ellert Nijenhuis, et al (2004)

[Luce]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

yea I like that link, its what they go by in the Netherlands Belgium, Amsterdam.....) though not the USA so where I live and work (NY,USA) we dont use this model. great link though.

I understand that you personally don't use it but there are others in your location (NY, USA) who do. Here is an example of one:
K. Martin Counseling & Consulting Services: Professional Training Opportunities

[peaches100]

My therapist used EMDR with me early in my therapy, before she realized how dissociative I am, and it caused a lot of problems. I couldn't handle the emotional distress that it caused. I got too flooded with pain, either during the EMDR session or in the 1-3 days following an EMDR session. It was a destabilizing experience for me that triggered my issues from childhood of being in painful situations that I couldn't tolerate. I endured several destabilizing episodes of EMDR. The emotional pain was so bad, it left me feeling retraumatized every time!

My t did her best to verbally coach me through these distressing EMDR sessions, but I felt like the pain would destroy me. All I could think and feel was that I was in horrible danger and pain, and I needed somebody to rescue me and protect me. In my case, it would have helped significantly if my t had come over and sat next to me, perhaps even holding my hand so that I would be able to hang onto some realization of her presence and know that I was not actually all alone and in danger. But my t was afraid to touch me because of my past SA in childhood. As a result, it triggered old issues from times I really was in too much pain or danger, and my mom wasn't there for me. It created feelings of fear and deprivation, and damaged our therapy relationship for a time. We finally quit trying to do EMDR.

As time went on, my t started to realize I was dissociative and learned that she should not have done EMDR with me so early without first helping me develop more coping skills and ability to tolerate distress. We have been working on that now for quite awhile. We still aren't ready to try EMDR again. But I sometimes still hold the hand buzzers in my session when we work on things. I think my t believes that it will help me incorporate more of our work with the bilateral stimulation.

Maybe my experience will help guide some of you who haven't tried it yet. I am by no means implying that EMDR is bad or damaging, in and of itself. But be careful that your therapist understands that people who are dissociative need much more preparatory work ahead of time to make sure it will not be too overwhelming for them. Also, if it helps to share my experience, my t has had to learn over and over again that in my sessions, she absolutely must go slow. It does not take much to flood me. Thankfully, I am getting better and being able to tolerate more and more distress without feeling retraumatized. But it has taken a long, long time!

As a child, our family just never talked about emotions or bad things at all, or even acknowledged emotional pain. So I never have learned how to talk about bad or scary feelings, much less work through them in therapy. I've had a hard time even allowing myself to feel things like fear, rejection, need, etc., without being terrified. It takes a long time...

Peaches

[Luce]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

what I stated was that in my location treatment providers do not use the structural dissociation model for DID, due to the fact that we no longer have a poly fragmented system in place for treating DID.

by that I meant treatment providers no longer use the multi axial \ poly fragmented system of diagnosis. this was one where alters were ranked by how important they were in the system, whether they were first, second or third forth last..., whether they were fully formed or just an unimportant fragment that didnt matter. and ranked according to whether they sprung into being from the host (body born) or whether they sprung \ branched off from another alter. now we have a diagnosis system in place where it does not matter whether an alter is just a fragment or first or second or where they sprung into being from alter or host. now treatment providers here in the USA treat all alters as essential and important regardless.

I also stated in my locations treatment providers do not have to learn the structural dissociation model in doing EMDR.

You are right they do not have to... yet. It is starting to be integrated into EMDR therapy there as well, however, and there is a push to get that happening more.

You haven't quite grasped the concepts of structural dissociation yet - it isn't about poly fragmentation or 'who came first or second or third'. It isn't about some parts of the self being more or less important than any other. Keep reading - you'll get there.

[Luce]

Thanks for sharing that, Peaches. I have to go to work now, but will post more later.

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by peaches100

My therapist used EMDR with me early in my therapy, before she realized how dissociative I am, and it caused a lot of problems. I couldn't handle the emotional distress that it caused. I got too flooded with pain, either during the EMDR session or in the 1-3 days following an EMDR session. It was a destabilizing experience for me that triggered my issues from childhood of being in painful situations that I couldn't tolerate. I endured several destabilizing episodes of EMDR. The emotional pain was so bad, it left me feeling retraumatized every time!

My t did her best to verbally coach me through these distressing EMDR sessions, but I felt like the pain would destroy me. All I could think and feel was that I was in horrible danger and pain, and I needed somebody to rescue me and protect me. In my case, it would have helped significantly if my t had come over and sat next to me, perhaps even holding my hand so that I would be able to hang onto some realization of her presence and know that I was not actually all alone and in danger. But my t was afraid to touch me because of my past SA in childhood. As a result, it triggered old issues from times I really was in too much pain or danger, and my mom wasn't there for me. It created feelings of fear and deprivation, and damaged our therapy relationship for a time. We finally quit trying to do EMDR.

As time went on, my t started to realize I was dissociative and learned that she should not have done EMDR with me so early without first helping me develop more coping skills and ability to tolerate distress. We have been working on that now for quite awhile. We still aren't ready to try EMDR again. But I sometimes still hold the hand buzzers in my session when we work on things. I think my t believes that it will help me incorporate more of our work with the bilateral stimulation.

Maybe my experience will help guide some of you who haven't tried it yet. I am by no means implying that EMDR is bad or damaging, in and of itself. But be careful that your therapist understands that people who are dissociative need much more preparatory work ahead of time to make sure it will not be too overwhelming for them. Also, if it helps to share my experience, my t has had to learn over and over again that in my sessions, she absolutely must go slow. It does not take much to flood me. Thankfully, I am getting better and being able to tolerate more and more distress without feeling retraumatized. But it has taken a long, long time!

As a child, our family just never talked about emotions or bad things at all, or even acknowledged emotional pain. So I never have learned how to talk about bad or scary feelings, much less work through them in therapy. I've had a hard time even allowing myself to feel things like fear, rejection, need, etc., without being terrified. It takes a long time...

Peaches

Thank you for what you shared here. What you have experienced is the root of my apprehension in trying EMDR, I believe. I've experienced the overwhelming feelings that you described having after the early EMDR sessions. My experiences were without EMDR. Some have been very strong and have lasted for days and it's very disturbing and scary. My fear is that with the EMDR it would be more than I could deal with. That would be considered retraumatization - maybe? I don't think I have understood what that word means exactly. Maybe it means getting "stuck" in that place and having no way to separate yourself from it?

My family was much like you describe yours growing up. I have very little skill or experience with working with strong emotions of anger, fear, rejection, need etc. It was so much safer for me to just "go away" and I guess that is what happens now, when I go back and try to heal those places. If that makes sense. It takes very little to "flood" me also, and sometimes I don't realize it until after the shift has happened.

Maybe as I get stronger and am able to tolerate more, I will feel braver to give it a try.

Thank you again for sharing your experience! It helped me understand why I was feeling what I was feeling!