I feel so guilty

Big Mama · Mar 18, 2014, 10:34 PM

I have not posted here in this forum ever, or if I have it has been a very long time ago.

Let me give you a brief run down on what the issues is and how it began.

My H and I have been married 20 years, or it will be 20 in June. Over the course of ht past 20 years he has been emotionally abusive, and mentally abusive. He has never been physically abusive. He is very controlling. 3 years ago my son got in trouble at school. He took a knife to school to protect himself from some bullying issues. The school system was surprised to see a kid with a knife. When they asked him why did he have a knife in the first place, he told the principal and the police it was to protect him self and his mom from his dad. It's all been crazy from that point on.

The courts recommended my family do intensive in home therapy 3-4 days a week for 3 hours a day after work and school, rather then having the children removed. Before the in home T left she recommended that my H go do a P doc or she would have the kids removed. But for fear for my safety she let me be the one to help get him to go to the P doc. He did. They gave him meds. He has OCD. Shortly after he began the meds he stopped. When the T found out she said she would let it slide if he got into regular T or even if we did marriage T together. So we started marriage T.

In marriage T we found out that the T specializes in trauma's. At one point in my life prior to meeting my husband, I was raped many times over by a boyfriend who was older then me. That helped a lot to work on that issue alone. Later we discovered the potential for CSA (Child sexual abuse). So needless to say I was contributing to the marital issues and didn't even know it. But my H continued to be controlling and have OCD issues.

Small things like...... well last week me and my 16 yr old son went out for coffee before I had T and my H called to see where we were. HE was angry when nI told him we shared coffee. Between the two of us we found 1.50 and shared a coffee. 10 min after my session with the T, my H called to see what we talked about, 45 min after that he called to see when I was coming home. He is irritated because I am not very affectionate and am not a huge fan of sex. Given my past history with sex and men I am having a hard time changing that.

To keep the story short. We have not gotten along for some time and we are in marriage T together. WE are going to try a temporary separation, to see if being together or being divorced is the best option for this.

I feel so guilty for continuing to press my H to leave. When he found out that leaving was an option, he became the nicest guy ever. We have done this time and time again over the past 2 years we have been in marriage T. Threats and he is nice for a few weeks then he goes back to being Mr.mean guy. I need him to leave. To save our marriage he needs to leave. It is gonna cost him some money to do it. But we have talked with the T and she has suggested maybe he stay gone for a month, That should be enough time to tell if we want to be married or not. She is not pushing us. She is not demanding this. She is just making this a process that might help, like an expirement for us. She has aided other couples threw this process.

I just feel guilty. He has been so nice the past few days. We have talked about things and I get a knot in my stomach. A "Oh no, I didn't think about that" kinda feeling. I am starting to doubt myself. I'm not typically known for making choices and sticking with them. I am not known for going against the grain so to speak. This will be the first time EVER that I have stood up against him. I'm afraid if I give in now he will become an even bigger bully. He will know what he has to do to get his way. It just feels terrible.

After talking to the T she says I have battered wife syndrome, minus the battery but with all the mental complications that come with that. I so totally agree. I would rather stay in chaos and abuse because I know what to expect then to leave even though I know what is going on is wrong. I just feel guilty. Like I am the one breaking up my family. I am the one pushing my hubby out the door. He is being so darn nice, NOW.

Anyone else been in this spot. Any advice on how to get over the guilt for putting you and your kids first for a change.

One last thing...... Please be praying for me, for us. I pray that Gods will be done and that I have the ability to recognize his will not my will. And I pray for the stregnth to accept his will no matter what that may be.

Thank you for listening.

H3rmit · Mar 19, 2014, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mama

I feel so guilty for continuing to press my H to leave. When he found out that leaving was an option, he became the nicest guy ever. We have done this time and time again over the past 2 years we have been in marriage T. Threats and he is nice for a few weeks then he goes back to being Mr.mean guy. I need him to leave. To save our marriage he needs to leave. It is gonna cost him some money to do it. But we have talked with the T and she has suggested maybe he stay gone for a month, That should be enough time to tell if we want to be married or not. She is not pushing us. She is not demanding this. She is just making this a process that might help, like an expirement for us. She has aided other couples threw this process.

I just feel guilty. He has been so nice the past few days. We have talked about things and I get a knot in my stomach. A "Oh no, I didn't think about that" kinda feeling. I am starting to doubt myself. I'm not typically known for making choices and sticking with them. I am not known for going against the grain so to speak. This will be the first time EVER that I have stood up against him. I'm afraid if I give in now he will become an even bigger bully. He will know what he has to do to get his way. It just feels terrible.

After talking to the T she says I have battered wife syndrome, minus the battery but with all the mental complications that come with that. I so totally agree. I would rather stay in chaos and abuse because I know what to expect then to leave even though I know what is going on is wrong. I just feel guilty. Like I am the one breaking up my family. I am the one pushing my hubby out the door. He is being so darn nice, NOW.

Anyone else been in this spot. Any advice on how to get over the guilt for putting you and your kids first for a change.

What you say makes sense. A lot of sense.

I haven't been in that spot. I have been asked to leave as a trial separation. I said, "Forget it; it's forever." It came unexpected and I was hurt. On the other hand, I really should have left many years before that. It wasn't a marriage, but it was a close "friendship" that wasn't working and I didn't even know it.

You have made great strides, and you're trying an excellent experiment. There needn't be any guilt for putting your kids and yourself first! But there is guilt. Only you can figure out what that guilt is all about. I wouldn't speculate. It wouldn't be respectful for me to do it.

Good luck going through the wormhole! I've just been through one myself the past few weeks with some school stuff. Only today the clouds parted. (Mixed metaphor, but I think you know what I mean. Heh.) It's really hard sometimes, and then things get better!

eskielover · Mar 19, 2014, 02:18 AM

I went through 33 years of a bad marriage....he wasn't controlling because we didn't have cell phones in the first place back then & I would have kicked him out sooner than I left if he had....but he had attitude issues where he knew he was always right even when he was wrong & he would always argue with me if he didn't want to do something or he would force me to do things that he wanted & then when I wouldn't be forced....I was the "controlling one".

When I was working as an engineer & had my own career, I was so involved with my career that I didn't bother much with the marriage......then when my career died.....so did I because I was home & had to then deal with his attitude....like just because I was home he thought he could just drop his things whereever when he got home from work & I would clean up after him & the worse was financial issues throughout our marriage. I cleaned up his credit mess once....but then when I ended up in & out of psych hospitals & he had to be the one to control the money....he didn't & wouldn't & couldn't or whatever his excuse was.....he definitely isn't capable of taking care of himself financially & totally destroyed us when I wasn't able to be in control.

So my mother died....& I got the house & the inheritance....& I was finally able to escape. It didn't start out that way....he actually came with me to look for my farm & initially I bought it with the thought that maybe getting totally away from where we had always lived would make a difference since he was no longer working either & had totally messed up his life with his attitude issues......however when the farm sale closed...I came here & spent the summer working on my farm & trying to get the house in order to move into....so I sort of camped out here.....it was the best feeling I had ever had since before I got married....I had actually LOST myself & my values & being away from him....I gained myself back. I stood in my kitchen one time & opened the cupboard & realized that I had all food that I liked & all things that he didn't like & for the first time in my life I could enjoy eating what I wanted to without having to take him into consideration.......that was back in May 2007.......I realized then that distance didn't make my heart grow fonder.....I could finally be free of the fighting (not physical until the end at times) & all the stress he put me through.....I finally felt completely free from him.

On one of my trips back to Calif that I drove just after Thanksgiving that year, my truck was broken into in Albequerque & my ID was stolen at the motel 6 I stayed at......when I got to Calif...I was so focused on trying to get back my flute that had been in the bag that was stolen....& the ID issue.......& he had purchased a plane ticket for our daughter & the initial plans were that we were all going to spend Christmas at my farm that year. The fights with him were so horrible when I got back there.....I really didn't even want him near me after being free from him....but I also knew that after what I went through on the way there that I wasn't sure I could drive my truck 2100 miles with my horse trailer loaded all alone......so at the last minute after getting a viper alarm system installed on my truck & the break system installed for hauling the horse trailer.....he ended up going with me.....

2100 miles in the same truck without any relief.....it was a nightmare.....but some things did come out & one statement I will never forget......he thought that I would "TOLERATE HIM FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES"....he never thought that I would leave him. He was here for a couple of weeks & we did pick up our daughter at the airport on our drive to my farm.....we were a day late getting there so we had her stay at a near by motel. She only stayed 3 days. I ended up kicking him out after 2 weeks....but then he had to make another trip to pick up the dogs because I ended up with all 13 of them & there was no way in my condition that I could care for 13 dogs....I kept 7 & let him take the others home.......I kept my special babies even though I loved the others...I think that was the hardest part of the final break up.....except for.......

Make sure that you do get the divorce if you really do finally decide that separation is the right thing.....I didn't bother......the first thing that hit me right after I kicked him out was a letter from the IRS the day before my birthday.....regarding back taxes that they had sent the first time the previous April & he had never said a word to me about

.....& it wasn't like just a tiny amount either. When I talked to the IRS....he hadn't even called or talked to them about it....he had just blown it all off like it didn't even exist. I ended up negotiating with the IRS & getting all the figures together even though he was the one who did the taxes that he messed up on MY INHERITANCE.....so I couldn't claim the innocent spouse.......a lot of fighting about how it was going to be paid for...but I won on that.......then just over a year ago....I found out that he had quit paying the property taxes.....then he quit paying the house payment.....he was making the same amount of money that he was in the beginning but who knows what he was blowing it on because his budget didn't match the reality I knew of his expenses. He bought a car with money his parents gave him & then turned around & got a loan shark loan on the auto....at 300% interest so that "he wouldn't end up with overdrawn bank account"....which he did anyway. He was I is a total incompetent idiot that I could never trust to ever take care of me later on in life if I would end up needing someone because he failed to take care of us financially when I did need him to be responsible.

However because my name was on the house loan....& the divorce wasn't final......my credit ended up totally messed up....it doesn't matter because I don't use credit anyway & refuse to ever use it for credit...but was trying to get a card that would give me extra money off on my gas & couldn't qualify because of the foreclosure on the house. After I found out about the property taxes & the foreclosure....he wouldn't even communicate with me & then he lied about having talked to them about it when he hadn't even called or talked to the bank at all & they were calling me to find out what was going on.....they didn't realize I was 2100 miles away......but I realized just how important getting the divorce really is when the relationship is decided to be ended. I'm still working on the divorce because he really doesn't want it.....another claim in the long truck ride across the US.....was that he didn't want a divorce because it would MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE A FAILURE.....so he's making me pay for the divorce.....& I basically left everything I own back there except for a few things I was able to bring with me in a medium sized moving truck...I didn't even bring all my cloths.....& it's been 7 years I financially haven't been able to get back there for my things either......so he has everything from the 33 years of marriage & then he wants 100% of his retirement money which was what paid for the IRS.......talk about greedy.....think his parents are filling him full of the BS that I ended up with all my mother's inheritance & HE GOT NOTHING & I was the one that left him even though it was his choice to refuse to make the changes that were necessary to make a marriage work.....as we had been dealing with this crap for 33 years.

Strange thing however is that looking back at everything & reading so much about Asperger's.......I swear that it definitely is at least part of what's going on with him.....he had been Dx'ed with adult ADD...but our pdoc said that he thought something more was neurologically wrong with him especially after the IRS situation & how he completely ignores any problem that comes up in his life & refuses to deal with it. It doesn't really matter to me if it does have Asperger's at this point....I realize that I never loved him from before we were married because of the attitude issues he had then when he got mad at the bank for not giving him a software programming position because his GPA was too low all because he had worked for them through college & he thought they owed him the position......that attitude showed up constantly during our marriage...& it was what I was going to call the wedding off because of....but my mother who was never a good judge of anything ended up talking me into going through with the wedding because it was just my cold feet & he would grow up when he had to.....he never did.......all the more why thinking back over the years......Asperger's might very well be an appropriate Dx....but something he would never agree to finding out about because he's claimed that it's his personality & he's not about to change.....another little tid bit that I got on the trip across the country in my truck with him.

OK.....so the thing is that yes, separation can really help you decide....I would actually think about giving it more than a month because at a month you are just starting to STOP second guessing yourself & starting to truly think through the details & the emotions & the future......for me, 3 months was a good deciding point......even though I knew from the beginning when I wasn't even thinking about him & was totally happy without being around him from the beginning....but it takes the time to logically think it all through & there are a lot of thoughts to think through that a month just doesn't quite make it.

Along with the beware.....if you totally decide for the divorce.......go for it & get it done without all the hassles that I ended up going through.

Sorry for the long drawn our detailed description.....& probably way too much detail.....but hope it helps you see that others do have similar struggles & basically one person's experience going through it.

I feel for what you are going through. My H was mister nice guy most of the time.....so much so that many couldn't understand why I left him...but they never saw the real him behind closed doors.....though he was basically very antisocial most of our married life....I was the one who brought together friends into our life....& the guys that were his friends before our marriage weren't guys I wanted to be around.

I wish you peace with this situation.....I actually realize now how God got me out of my marriage & placed me in a place where I would be free to actually get to really know God & find that having a relationship with God who has provided for me so much more than my H ever did in all the years of our marriage....not financially, but is so many other more important ways.....& God has provided financially at times also....when I was struggling to have enough money for gas several months...I would end up winning a gas card from the radio Bible trivia show.....& just so many little things like that where God showed himself in my life in a providing way......along with many other experiences I never imagined could have been when I was living within the marriage...could see God's hand in my life continuously.....though I still struggle with that at times. Let your mind be open to what God is telling you while separated....that is another reason why I think more than a month would be much better....one month doesn't give that much time to process what God may be telling you.....if it is....then great....1 month...but be prepared for longer.

Big Mama · Mar 19, 2014, 12:19 PM

Eskie the T we have is starting to think he has Aspurgers. My son does and it is an inherited trait. Thank you for sharing some of your story. It does give me hope actually. I just feel crappy that is all there is to it.

Herrmit Thank you. When I think of WHY I feel guilty it is because as sick as it sounds I think I might love this man. Cuss me, control me, emotionally abuse me, have me live in poverty, but I love him, I THINK.

eskielover · Mar 19, 2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Cuss me, control me, emotionally abuse me, have me live in poverty, but I love him, I THINK.

Obviously the next question to think about is: what is it that you think makes you love him? It's worth thinking about.....it took me a real long time to realize going back 33 years & even bringing up in my memory what had happened before the wedding.....that the feeling of love had NEVER been there.....I never realized that until 33 years later after I left him & was in a peaceful place where memories could come back to me & I could think over all that had gone on in the marriage.....it was quite a shocking realization TBH....after all those years.

nicoleflynn · Mar 19, 2014, 02:10 PM

I stayed f or 31 years in a a verbally abusive "marriage." I found the book that saved my life: The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and began the journey to freedom the scariest thing I ever did. I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group and when I hear women say they love their abusers it is confusing. I don't think you love him; I think you WANT to love him, or love what your life would be like if he didn't abuse you.

Of COURSE he is being nice; this is the cycle of violence, called the "Honeymoon Phase"..yu can look that up.....Stockholm syndrome and Biderman's Chart of Coercion, also...it feels easier to stay in an abusive situation, because it is what you are used to.

If the family breaks up......it is HIS fault. HE CHOSE to abuse you. Abuse is a choice.

If you don't feel you can stand up for yourself; do it for your son; he didn't choose this and our first responsibility is to our children (not judging....as one who stayed too long)...Did you ever contact RAINN? I heard heard really good things about it (rape).

I hope you are getting counseling for your son (I think you said you were). Frequently when children are abused they can become abusers or accept abuse.

Please make the responsible choice and separate and take as long as you need to. You and your son need to feel safe and have some peace. Your son is counting on you (at least subconsiously)....I have attached the link to the cycle/wheel of violence; I am sure it will be familiar with you......it shows the steps an abuser goes through. Abusers use the same techniques used in POW camps

http://www.domesticviolence.org/violence-wheel/

Big Mama · Mar 19, 2014, 04:06 PM

I have not gone to RAINN yet, I do belong to Rape & Sexual Abuse Survivor Message Board, Support Forums & Chat Room though. And it is very helpful. IT is for survivors or rape. I will have to look into that link you sent when things are quieter, later on this evening.

Thank you for your encouragement. I don;t have just one child counting on me. I have 3 kids counting on me to keep them safe. I have to do this and my brain knows it. Now if I could just convince my heart.

healingme4me · 04:43 PM

I have learned, that even in leaving, it will continue on past the separation and if there's a divorce, the divorce. I have learned, that if there are untreated mental illnesses on either side of the equation, marital therapy is almost a moot issue. It's good that you are working through your stuff, in individual T(hope I read that correct?), but if he's not contributing his fair share, by stopping meds and not doing his own individual work through, what's to feel guilt for? It takes two...

Are you exploring anything like co-dep tendencies, within yourself? As for the guilt you are struggling with?

Your son's behavior in school, is textbook, that there's some sort of abuse in the home, in your case, psychological abuse(verbal and emotional). It affects kids, even if you become so used to it, almost immune to noticing any longer.

I would assume you are familiar with the abusive cycle? The niceness he's displaying is part of that, calm before the storm, the 'hoovering' as it's referred to in some cirlces of support groups found online.

Don't be so quick, to feel, all your past stuff, is what's contributed, wholly contributed. He has choices in how he behaves. Of course he's being nice now, but I'm sure, after 20 years, you recognize this trend in him?

I'm a jane doe, too.

add: an effect of abuse, something that stands out and I learned elsewhere and in depth discussed, elsewhere, worth a look at...

Stockholm Effect/Syndrome....

Big Mama · Mar 19, 2014, 06:15 PM

Healing, thank you so much for all your insight.

We are doing individual T as well as marriage T. I have stuff to work on and so does he. I am working on mine and I think he is to, just slowly. Old habits die hard.

As for the guilt, I hate to see my H hurting, I hate to see him trying, I hate to see him almost begging not to do this. He is being extremely calm and rational. And believe it or not that scares me to death. I know that is not what he is feeling inside. I don't want him to blow.

I know my sons behavior is very text book. Seeing violence at home, or at least emotional and verbal abuse,then acting out in violent ways. I have him in T on and off. Right now he is doing good. My T may want to meet with our 3 kids from time to time to make sure all is well.

I am so familiar with his cycle. With the cycle of abuse. He does it so often it is starting to drive me crazy literally. I have told the T I am so tired of this. She knows and has told me, one day it will become the cycle one time to many and that will be it and you will know it is time to walk. That is where I am right now.

I do know that one issues I have is what my T calls Savior syndrome. My H saved me from a bad situation and I feel indebted to him. It is my sole job to provide for his happiness and take care of his every need. That is how I used to feel and how I was behaving and didn't even realize it. The T asked me did he by any chance save me from something. She said I treat him like his word is the word, and what he says goes, and I don't argue his point, I just do what he says even though it makes me miserable.

I looked at Stockholm Effect/Syndrome and he doesn't do that but the kids do. It is very confusing and quickly convinces you that you are crazy.

You had one question I couldn't answer:
Am I experiencing co-dependent tendencies? I don't know, I'm not familiar with that.

If you could explain that a little I would appreciate your thoughts.

healingme4me · Mar 19, 2014, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mama

Healing, thank you so much for all your insight.

We are doing individual T as well as marriage T. I have stuff to work on and so does he. I am working on mine and I think he is to, just slowly. Old habits die hard.

As for the guilt, I hate to see my H hurting, I hate to see him trying, I hate to see him almost begging not to do this. He is being extremely calm and rational. And believe it or not that scares me to death. I know that is not what he is feeling inside. I don't want him to blow.

I know my sons behavior is very text book. Seeing violence at home, or at least emotional and verbal abuse,then acting out in violent ways. I have him in T on and off. Right now he is doing good. My T may want to meet with our 3 kids from time to time to make sure all is well.

I am so familiar with his cycle. With the cycle of abuse. He does it so often it is starting to drive me crazy literally. I have told the T I am so tired of this. She knows and has told me, one day it will become the cycle one time to many and that will be it and you will know it is time to walk. That is where I am right now.

I do know that one issues I have is what my T calls Savior syndrome. My H saved me from a bad situation and I feel indebted to him. It is my sole job to provide for his happiness and take care of his every need. That is how I used to feel and how I was behaving and didn't even realize it. The T asked me did he by any chance save me from something. She said I treat him like his word is the word, and what he says goes, and I don't argue his point, I just do what he says even though it makes me miserable.

I looked at Stockholm Effect/Syndrome and he doesn't do that but the kids do. It is very confusing and quickly convinces you that you are crazy.

You had one question I couldn't answer:
Am I experiencing co-dependent tendencies? I don't know, I'm not familiar with that.

If you could explain that a little I would appreciate your thoughts.

Symptoms of Codependency | Psych Central

You mentioned Savior, which would fall in line with 'rescuer' tendencies that are symptoms of co-dependency. At some point or another, many of us carry around some of these characteristics. I am of the belief system, that these tendencies in and of themselves, are only problematic if it's a dysfunctional pattern.

Your husband, may not be happy right now with the separation, as you don't seem thrilled either. Yet, it's giving you both space you need to grow and develop and work through your own therapies in order to come back together a bit stronger, if that's a choice you both want to take with one another. After all, the kids will all be grown up soon, and the two of you will be left to one another. Will you both be able to behave functionally together, after the kids aren't around daily?

It's good, to hear that he's in therapy. For some, when it's not by choice, but necessity find it very difficult to embrace the fact that they need to take personal responsibility and change. Of course, the notion of change, to many gives the impression, that all those core characteristics that make an individual an individual must change, but that just isn't so.

I've been in and out of therapy since I was 9/10 years old. Talking around 30 years here. Who I was deep down, as a kid, actually, there's pieces of me, that are intrinsically me!

Yet, thought processes have changed, to become more rational. More functional. My life story, isn't going anywhere, anytime soon. I've had my fair share of tragedies, just like the many who exist on this planet.

One thing, that you wrote, that actually caught my 'eye', was 'knowing how your h feels inside'. (I highlighted that in Red Bold). 'Mind reading' tendency. More based, from your following comment about fearing he'll 'blow'. It's part of the trust in your marriage that's been damaged by your husbands mistreatment of you, and understandably so. It's going to take a lot for him to rebuild trust, and a lot, on your end, to be able to stop him, on spot, and express your feelings about what just transpired without bottling it up. Not saying you bottle up, but it's common for people pleasers/rescuers/saviors. Breeds resentment.

It's good, for all of you, that your family got the crisis intervention when it did, while the kids are still kids. Fingers crossed, maybe they'll learn by watching your growth and not carry that forward to future generations.