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RodneyR
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Default Mar 13, 2022 at 11:04 PM
  #1
I didn't see a word limit, and I feel I can only start this by being an open book. Apologies in advance.....This will be a read, so bare with me.

My wife and I have been married for 4 years, knowing each other for 5. We have the best little girl ever, she recently turned 2 and is such a blessing for us! So now what's going on between us... backstory first and then the issue.

Up to the point my wife got pregnant, our relationship was pretty great, never argued about things and just simply enjoyed each other's company. Then we got pregnant. Looking back, I could have done better as a husband. I missed 2-3 prenatal appointments due to work, and I ever so often left to get items she was craving. I certainly regret and learned from this experience. Right at the 6 month mark we had to move a few states away, I asked if she wanted to drive herself as I needed to pull the other vehicle, she agreed. I countered with myself going there, flying back and bringing her up and she assured me she could do the drive. Once the move was complete, and I moved the entire house by myself (minus her driving), the truth was revealed much later that this was a reason behind me being a bad husband during that time.

Birth of our baby happens, I get a month off of work and I had a slight phase where I did a lot of gaming while I was off during maternity leave, helped often with our daughter, often told "no" when trying to relieve her of mommy duties. Apparently the gaming was a little too much (looking back, it was), but I still feel as though I was much more involved than most of the fathers I knew, and heard of... I definitely feel that way as well. It just wasn't enough, and yet another lesson learned. (This dilemma was about 3-4 months).

My wife ends up diagnosed with post-partum depression, the meds sort of helped but the counseling wasn't the greatest as she likes to say. This was a very eye-opening experience for me, and an understanding of just how drastically hormones can change. With this knowledge I tried being there for her more than usual but it was never enough. Please note, most of this takes place during peak COVID, so staying inside does not help the fun couple who enjoyed the scenic outdoors most days.

During this 3 year stint, around the end of year 2, we had a huge argument about how shes discovered her new self, and she wasn't going to be walked on anymore by anyone (shes previously divorced). She shared with me that the beginning of our relationship, looking back, she felt that she just allowed me to do and say whatever and just "went with it" most of the time. That wasn't going to happen anymore. We got through this argument, but this "new version" of herself has been here ever since. That argument ended with her stating that for me(myself not her) to love properly it would have to be with someone else. My dumb self said "then I guess divorce is next." And we settled down for the night. 3 months after this argument and 2 weeks before our daughter turned 2 she came in after putting our daughter down and said "we need to talk about how we're going to do this" I said, what, and then she followed with "how we're going to handle everything in this divorce."

This was 3 months ago. Prior to her coming to me about the divorce, I had planned to turn our relationship around by supporting her more emotionally, being present and doing things like we used to, putting her first, but then when she approached me the way she did, I went dark. I told her that's not what I wanted but she had said she's made up her mind. I shared my intentions on our relationship, but it doesn't change how she feels. She claims that I don't even know her, I need to learn more about myself and why I am the way I am, and that I'll be okay after all of this and find someone who I really connect with.

After 3 days of sulking/feeling my emotions(something I never do), I scheduled a counseling session to talk about things (also something I never do) and discovered that recently I was putting my daughter as my priority, when in fact it should be my relationship as everything else will stem from that. If I put my wife first, we could blossom just like we did at the beginning, and I forgot that.

I've shared that with her, I've told her my intentions to be better two separate times since then. My actions last for a few days and then this wall hits me because she's not about it. Every day I'm trying to be that guy for her, myself, and my daughter, while still respecting her decision and its just so dang hard.

Looking back, I lacked interest in her and I recognized that prior to her coming to me about separation but also with that confrontation, the same goes for her. Her and I did drift apart but I know we can find that happy place again if she would just trust and try.

*This small bit is my brain 24/7*I'm trying... I'm being the best version of myself every single day around her, and shes not giving an inch and its so discouraging not only because shes treating me like a roomate but because soon enough she will take my daughter states away from here all because of this flip of a switch decision. Shes a stay at home mom, and children grow best with their mothers. I'm the working parent, so how does that work if I wanted to take her to court? Why would I do that to my daughter, I barely have the time... but I should because it is almost unfair as to what my wife is doing to me. We made a commitment, through thick and thin... we barely fought, why are you cutting the rope on the first big hill?

My counseling only helps so much, I'm trying my best, preparing for either outcome... I will never understand any of this if it leads to a separation. My poor baby girl, shes next on my mind when I think about the scenario and how this might come in the future. I don't know what the right or wrong thing to do is, except to be the best version of myself. But damn do. All i've tried to do is see it from her perspective, but nothing is lining up and my days are starting to feel number. (Not suicidal at all, but the time I have left with my 2 yr old (on an everyday basis)). I even brought up marriage counseling has her and I have talked about at our last fight, and she said only counseling that would help us co-parent (like, why is she so strong on this sepearation)

I know this is a freaking ton, but the only people I can talk to about this are the counselor, my best friend (wife, but clearly not the case), and my other best friend who just got into a great relationship that I'm not trying to mess with at the moment.

Any advice, or even just words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated. I haven't cried like this since my highschool heartbreak days, and my life is forever changed by this.
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Default Mar 14, 2022 at 09:44 AM
  #2
Number one, get a lawyer. She cannot take your daughter out of state unless you agree.
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Default Mar 14, 2022 at 10:18 AM
  #3
It doesn't feel it was a decision coming from a "flip of a switch". From what you write, it has been brewing and festering. It is more an accumulation of things. And she took you at your word when you mentioned divorce.

Good that you take accountability re not being there as much as you could and that you are now trying + you want to make it work.

It seems unfortunate as it seems there is miscommunication, lack of communication, things said in the heat of the moment... and it has snowballed as a result.

Could you ask her to give it one more try to 'save' the marriage, especially with a little one? To both give it your best shot (going for couples' counselling to help with communication issues, not sulking but talking, respect, being there for one another and *hearing* one another). IF she refuses to try, unfortunately, it is her prerogative - again, not knowing what she is feeling/thinking. Though, another argument for her to give it a go is that a couples' counsellor would hear 'her' side (so she would feel heard?) IF she feels unheard in the relationship.
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Default Mar 14, 2022 at 07:28 PM
  #4
I don’t recommend people get divorced with young children. I recommend you give it another chance. Of course if she agrees to try

Having said that…

I had to read one part of your post two times because I wanted to make sure I understood. You took a month off after the birth of a baby and did a lot of gaming. My daughter is expecting a baby in about a month. I can’t envision my son in law spending his paternity leave doing any kind of gaming, let alone a lot of it. Why not go back to work then. Even if she said no to helping with the baby, you had to spend that month cooking grocery shopping doing laundry cleaning. Not gaming. In addition she had post partum. I can’t imagine what she felt watching you, a new father, wasting precious time off work gaming.

Not saying it’s a grounds for divorce but it sure is a huge red flag. I feel upset even reading about it. I can only imagine how she felt actually being there!

Now I do blame her for not speaking up. She kept her disappointments to herself. She had to address it right there. On the other hand what you see is what you get. No point to try changing people.. She saw what she was getting. It didn’t work for her. And now she wants out

I think couples therapy in order to coparent in a healthy manner is a great idea. Your child deserves to have two involved parents. It doesn’t mean they have to be a couple. Do talk to a lawyer though about her taking a child away. Sometimes judge would allow it but not always
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Default Mar 14, 2022 at 11:44 PM
  #5
You start off saying you "could have done better as a husband." Then you give examples in which you are always the good guy, and your wife is the unappreciative, impossible-to-please spouse. Your gaming occurred during a "slight phase." You try to sound humble, but you rationalize all your behaviors. You missed some prenatal appointments, but only "due to work." (She has no job, and someone has to earn a living.) If you have portrayed her truthfully, then she sounds like a miserable person to live with. (I'm going by the information you've provided.) I have a bad opinion of your wife, based on what you've told us. At some level, I think your wife is aware of this low opinion you hold of her.

Your post consistently portrays you as the victim . . . until the end where you describe your daughter as being a victim also . . . two victims of this unreasonable woman.

If your wife gasn't gone to a lawyer yet, she's still hoping to save the marriage. A woman who seriously wants a divorce doesn't ask her husband how it's going to be "handled." She addresses that with an attorney. She said that to get a rise out of you . . . to tell you how unhappy she is. She was being provocative.

If everything you do "is never enough," then she must be unreasonable.

You both have the same pattern of communication. That's the problem. Neither one of you expresses yourself without becoming defensive. There's a bunch of passive-aggressive stuff going on here.

Quietly go to a lawyer yourself, without telling her. Have the lawyer advise you on what is the best way to preserve your rights and safeguard your interests. Do NOT offer to move out. Stay in that home, so she can't say you abandoned the marriage. Be less defensive. No man wins a woman's respect by trying to stand on his head to please her. When she wants to start an accusatory back and forth, don't take the bait. Say, "I'm glad you told me how you feel." Then clam up. Think of some good traits she has and let her know you recognize her virtues. Say, "I'ld hate to lose a wonderful woman like you." Don't say, "I've tried my best, but you're never satisfied." Good luck. I hope you preserve the family intact. Never say, "I want us to stay together for the sake of our daughter."
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Default Mar 16, 2022 at 09:24 AM
  #6
Get an attorney. You should also know that this isn't a flip of a switch decision - she might just be done. Maybe your best isn't enough for her, who knows. You will need an attorney to work out the custody and financial parts.
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Default Mar 16, 2022 at 11:13 AM
  #7
Postpartum depression is real and can be awful.

Have you gotten therapy to help you better understand it?
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Default Mar 16, 2022 at 11:27 AM
  #8
Hi RodneyR, I've read all your post and I'm sorry. Sounds like this woman is a bad apple. Write this off and move on, build yourself up and then build a new life with a woman that's a better character, is more compatible with you, and has herself and her life put together better. And right now with the divorce drama and the whole divorce getting ahead, do not let yourself be taken advantage of. Do not enter bad drama however, you still need to act responsibly also because you need to keep the baby in mind. To give my input beyond this, I will comment on another post below as that will sum up most of my further thoughts on all this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose76 View Post
If you have portrayed her truthfully, then she sounds like a miserable person to live with. (I'm going by the information you've provided.) I have a bad opinion of your wife, based on what you've told us. At some level, I think your wife is aware of this low opinion you hold of her.
Interesting how the same post can be read so differently by different people. I read it as him still appreciating her or why else would he try so hard?! He himself puts it as, why give up at the first big challenge in life together. I fully agree with that - I myself would NOT want to give up at the first big problem to deal with. Life will never be perfect happy sunshiney, we all have to be able to deal with the challenges too. Otherwise what's the point of the relationship?!

But, not everyone is like that. Some will indeed give up and run away and be completely comfort-focused and self-absorbed like that.

And then, I read on all these posts, not just yours, and I think, it's like, he's taken responsibility already where many people would not, he's done things, he's not perfect, so what?! What more can be expected of him?! I would be REALLY glad if *I* had a boyfriend or husband like this. One that actually DOES do things for me *and* with me (going out, doing fun things) and is overall reliable and responsible like taking a month off from work, and moving the whole house himself, and trying to understand my emotional problems (e.g. this postpartum depression) and so on.

As far as the gaming. I don't see a problem there, if it was temporary and if all the most important chores were still done. The chores do not take 24 hours of the day, there can be time for relaxing too.

Note when I say most important chores, who cares if there is a little mess here and there in the house, the most important is get food, take care of the baby, have clean clothes and absolute basics like that. And I know I myself would not want to focus 24 hours a day (minus sleep) on the chores and the baby. That would just not be good, I believe this is called self-care in applied psychology/therapy/self-help.

Another note: I never did gaming myself, as I really dislike the idea of wasting time on video games, so that's not really the point here. The point is spend some of your day doing what you like doing to be able to relax and not completely run yourself down. If for OP this is gaming, then so be it. As long as it doesn't take time away from other things. Again, some people use the term self-care for this.

Quote:
Your post consistently portrays you as the victim . . . until the end where you describe your daughter as being a victim also . . . two victims of this unreasonable woman.
I mean she did divorce one time before. Now she wants to again when the baby is only 2 years old.

This is where it's the biggest tip off to me as far as her being a bad apple.

It could otherwise have just been incompatibility, BUT I heavily doubt that. Because:
1) it should have been figured out way sooner, not after the baby, if there was serious incompatibility.
2) Way too much drama in here for only compatibility being the issue.
3) As far as drama....that includes, her blaming things like her own lack of assertiveness on him, making him out to be the bad one for it. What she should have done is, own up to her giving in too much to him if that's how she truly feels, and THEN fix that, change that. Take responsibility and learn more assertiveness instead of doing drama. That's what she should have done instead of provocative drama and relational aggression.
4) The lack of taking responsibility includes things like, deciding OP is the one who has to learn about themselves....She somehow decided she herself is now the perfect person that's learnt everything about themselves. And overstepping boundaries by telling OP that he has to "properly love" someone else, he has to learn about himself, i.e. telling him what to do, think and feel. Especially about such intimate matters. Not okay in my book.
5) That thing about OP never being good enough. Another BIG red flag.

I will stop here, I think that was enough of a list. Even just the basic facts already show there is a big problem with her, even without this list. My opinion, of course, based on all the information here. It just shows that, though.

Quote:
If your wife gasn't gone to a lawyer yet, she's still hoping to save the marriage. A woman who seriously wants a divorce doesn't ask her husband how it's going to be "handled." She addresses that with an attorney. She said that to get a rise out of you . . . to tell you how unhappy she is. She was being provocative.

If everything you do "is never enough," then she must be unreasonable.
That is very interesting, because I would've been much like OP, taking it at face value. That woman sounds like too much drama..... Expecting others to mindread like this! What's more, attacking others, attacking the person supposed to be her life-long partner, doing the most extreme personal attack and relational aggression possible, and then expect to have her mind being read magically and be understood in that fashion! Expecting the impossible!

So again, you say she was being provocative. For what purpose or goal? Just venting emotion out there, taking it out on him? What's the point of that? Rhetorical questions. If she truly just wanted to share how unhappy she was, she wouldn't get manipulative and do drama like that, she would simply share her real feelings in a sincere way and would want to look for a solution after the feelings have been communicated and understood. Ofcourse, that would require someone more put together and mature than what this woman sounds like.

Quote:
Quietly go to a lawyer yourself, without telling her. Have the lawyer advise you on what is the best way to preserve your rights and safeguard your interests. Do NOT offer to move out. Stay in that home, so she can't say you abandoned the marriage.
I agree with all this. Very good advice imo. I would add for OP, do NOT offer anything to this woman out of niceness, care, anything. It's too far gone for that. Keep the basic, reasonable behaviour, but do not go out of your way to give to her beyond that. Divorce means exactly that, that you can't go out of your way anymore like that. You have to focus on both your own interests, and on the baby's interests now, and not on hers beyond that.

Quote:
Be less defensive.
Less defensive? Again, consider this bad personal attack that you did provide a great analysis of. Do you expect this guy to have at once a perfect man's and a perfect woman's brain and act like a saint and not feel a need to defend himself in the face of all that?!

Ofcourse, I do agree that bad drama should not be dragged on. OP needs to act responsibly and not get pulled into any of that manipulative drama.

Quote:
No man wins a woman's respect by trying to stand on his head to please her.
Very good advice again.

Quote:
When she wants to start an accusatory back and forth, don't take the bait. Say, "I'm glad you told me how you feel." Then clam up.
So this is where it would be like be manipulative back? By clamming up?

Also I personally know if I was advised to say such a sentence in response to drama like that, it would HAVE to be manipulative. There is NO way for it to be actually honest if I have been attacked this severely. I cannot and will not pretend kindness, niceness, submissiveness if I've been attacked. Most guys are the same.

No, I'm not a guy but I appreciate the brand of directness some guys have. Anyone pretending to be kind to me when there is an actual issue, any negative feeling that needs addressing or in the worst form of it, when they actually are secretly nursing a severe, lasting distrust about me is a person I would not want in my life. That's manipulative and anything but direct or honest. Even a direct, straightforward attack is better than that.

Quote:
Think of some good traits she has and let her know you recognize her virtues. Say, "I'ld hate to lose a wonderful woman like you." Don't say, "I've tried my best, but you're never satisfied."
This is in the category of him trying to stand on his head to please her. I would not follow this advice if I were OP. This is much too nice behaviour in response to her personal attacks.

She has to be able to recognise her own virtues and good traits first anyways. She seems like she has much work to do first for that. Ironic as she advised OP to do that work on himself instead of recognising this.

Note I get it you mean well by trying to advise him to do more empathetic or validating responses, and maybe this kind of skill could be useful in other situations, I don't know but even if it would be useful elsewhere, I don't think this relationship is where he would have to learn anything more about emotions or empathy.

First he'd have to find some more healthy company for himself, he should not practice any of that with this woman as it would just end up as overly nice behaviour pleasing or appeasing her, rather than fair, reasonable, truly and mutually empathetic benefitting both of them.

But like I already said, I don't think he has an actual severe lack of empathy. I do not think that's the problem in this marriage. Again, based on all the information I've read here.

Quote:
Good luck. I hope you preserve the family intact. Never say, "I want us to stay together for the sake of our daughter."
Well, if she does bad drama like, she can't expect a "perfect" response back. What could she expect, really, him being so empathetic and validating in the face of her quick and major betrayal of him and the relationship and everything that all the relationship stood for?!

So, it can be a perfectly valid and honest attitude and response to only want to stay together for the sake of the baby. (Not that I'd recommend that personally) And then if that's the case, why lie about it? Why hide it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Postpartum depression is real and can be awful.

Have you gotten therapy to help you better understand it?
I'll add this before finishing all this. I think this is too far gone beyond the point where OP should still try and put in any more empathy and understanding to try and get her side. He's tried already. It did not help. Any further effort would just be a waste of time, energy, going to wasteland. He cannot control the relationship between them like that. It's all up to her to understand her own depression if that was really the only problem here, but I doubt it's the only problem really.

My opinion.


Well I don't think I can say anything more. If I came off strong anywhere, it was not with the intent to be argumentative. This is all my honest opinions. To validate OP as well where I believed it would be helpful. Feel free to agree or disagree. I was not responding to your post to argue with you personally Rose76/Open Eyes, but to list out my thoughts on all this. I will not engage in any argument with anyone on here. The questions were rhetorical and I do not expect a response to them. This was my first and last post in this thread as I cannot add more.

The best luck to OP!

Last edited by Etcetera1; Mar 16, 2022 at 11:44 AM..
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Default Mar 18, 2022 at 08:35 PM
  #9
There's an old saying that is passed around as advice to husbands: "You can be right . . . or you can be happy."

The O.P. has a choice of what to make as his goal: He can aim at vindicating himself and seeking validation . . . or . . . he can aim at saving his marriage. It's a trade off. You get to pick one. You don't get to pursue both simultaneously. Maybe that's unfair, but that's life. Life is perpetually unfair. We do well to seek out the best outcome we can get. We waste our time and energy, if we seek out an outcome that's just not going to happen.

I take the O.P. at his word - that he'ld really like to save this marriage. (Maybe it's not worth saving. IDK. That's up to him.) I'ld like to see this 2 year old child live in a home with both her mom and dad there with her. I'm in favor of trying to save any marriage where small children are involved, except in cases of one party getting beaten up or repeatedly cheated on. (I said "try," not "stay together no matter what.")

Now I'll say something many will object to: There's probably nothing wrong with being manipulative, if it gets you to where you want to be. That doesn't mean it's okay to act like a sociopath. But, if laying a little sugar on a woman keeps her from running to a divorce lawyer, then go ahead and let the sweet-talkin' flow, if you want the marriage to continue. Ask yourself: "What is my objective, and what will get me to that objective?"

If your objective is to get people to "side with you" or to say, "You're right and she's wrong!" - then keep writing posts like the one starting this thread. Just remember that none of these people is going to warm your bed at night.
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Default Mar 21, 2022 at 06:02 AM
  #10
It’s not just the post pardon depression. That’s is very real and some women have it worse than others. It’s actually more than that in that a woman begins to see things differently after having a child. There is vulnerability with this and more responsibility and yet also a change in personal freedom as well.

From what you share, she is also a stay home mother and that can isolate her in that she is not engaged in life the same way and is dependent. You on the other hand are involved with interactions and more freedoms than her. I know you think you are tied down and carry financial responsibility, but that is a kind of freedom and power she doesn’t have.

From what you share, her actions are reflecting her attempt to have a sense of power. You see, you have both, a child to adore and distance and freedom separate from that. When you are the main caretaker of a child you are witnessing the very beginnings of self discovery. And at first not only a hormonal change takes place but also a lack of sleep in that a baby demands a lot of attention and a mother sleeps lighter to be aware of her child’s needs. So with that there is a giving up of self. It is a very big change inlifestyle that can bring about some deep insecurities and uncertainties.

It’s a big life adjustment. And it’s different for each of you. Your wife is venting frustration and because you don’t understand it you feel it’s rejection.

What if you heard things differently in when she says you may be happier with someone else it’s not a statement but a question. Your reply of “the next step is divorce” was just as good as saying she is no longer wanted and all that did was fuel a deep fear that even she doesn’t understand.

Your reply should have been more reassuring. Instead you unknowingly fed her fears. A child creates change and new challenges and fears. A couple is required to grow despite this change along with the insecurities that come with it. There is a lot of adjustment when it comes to being a young parent. There are insecurities that arise in each that are completely new and confusing.

This pandemic has added even more stress and fears to an already challenging time in a young couple’s life. Women do go through a lot of hormonal changes when they have a child. It’s a very confusing time in a woman’s life.

The things she is expressing are her fears that even she is confused about. Yes things are different now in that you have moved from being a young couple to learning how to be a family. She is expressing the changes yet she doesn’t really understand how to articulate it. And you are confused about understanding and how to respond. And you sure did throw a hot iron on the fire by uttering the word divorce.
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Default Mar 25, 2022 at 04:41 PM
  #11
Apologies for the late response, life has been full of events recently and reading responses would have probably brought even less sleep my way. Hopefully this response posts right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unaluna View Post
Number one, get a lawyer. She cannot take your daughter out of state unless you agree.
I certainly have been searching the internet over this and found it out recently, I'm currently serving in the military and it makes things a little complicated. I start to think being with her mother is the best choice if divorce happens, but then again, why should I simply allow that when this wasn't asked for. Whats best for my daughter will be my priority for that instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rive. View Post
It doesn't feel it was a decision coming from a "flip of a switch". From what you write, it has been brewing and festering. It is more an accumulation of things. And she took you at your word when you mentioned divorce.

Good that you take accountability re not being there as much as you could and that you are now trying + you want to make it work.

It seems unfortunate as it seems there is miscommunication, lack of communication, things said in the heat of the moment... and it has snowballed as a result.

Could you ask her to give it one more try to 'save' the marriage, especially with a little one? To both give it your best shot (going for couples' counselling to help with communication issues, not sulking but talking, respect, being there for one another and *hearing* one another). IF she refuses to try, unfortunately, it is her prerogative - again, not knowing what she is feeling/thinking. Though, another argument for her to give it a go is that a couples' counsellor would hear 'her' side (so she would feel heard?) IF she feels unheard in the relationship.
That is exactly where my thoughts sit. It feels as a flip of a switch but behind the scenes, she's probably been thinking about this choice of hers for a while. Seeing as the communication I put out about trying to mend things, she has no fold to anything that comes out of my mouth. Lately I've been catching her with responses of "me always trying to control things" so I've determined shes made me out to be a narcassist of the sort and is tailoring her responses to that. To a degree i do have controling aspects but not in the sense shes built me up. I've spent weeks with different online tests, being honest with my self and on a scale, i'm pretty low for narcasissm but i don't know at this point. I'm going to be trying again here when a time in the day isn't so hectic... having that conversation about giving it one hoorah for the sake of our commitment that we made to one another, and also giving our daughter a stable home during this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by divine1966 View Post
I don’t recommend people get divorced with young children. I recommend you give it another chance. Of course if she agrees to try

Having said that…

I had to read one part of your post two times because I wanted to make sure I understood. You took a month off after the birth of a baby and did a lot of gaming. My daughter is expecting a baby in about a month. I can’t envision my son in law spending his paternity leave doing any kind of gaming, let alone a lot of it. Why not go back to work then. Even if she said no to helping with the baby, you had to spend that month cooking grocery shopping doing laundry cleaning. Not gaming. In addition she had post partum. I can’t imagine what she felt watching you, a new father, wasting precious time off work gaming.

Not saying it’s a grounds for divorce but it sure is a huge red flag. I feel upset even reading about it. I can only imagine how she felt actually being there!

Now I do blame her for not speaking up. She kept her disappointments to herself. She had to address it right there. On the other hand what you see is what you get. No point to try changing people.. She saw what she was getting. It didn’t work for her. And now she wants out

I think couples therapy in order to coparent in a healthy manner is a great idea. Your child deserves to have two involved parents. It doesn’t mean they have to be a couple. Do talk to a lawyer though about her taking a child away. Sometimes judge would allow it but not always
So the gaming... she deems it as a red flag for sure. I personally keep myself well-rounded and utilize it for self care purposes at times. Granted i don't ignore lifes responsibilities of keeping the house clean, everyone fed.... including our 4 animals. Everything is taken care of, I just could have been more supportive for HER, emotionally and at times physically. I mention this every so often when I see certain things that could have helped her. It's like I'm primed for the coming of the next child as I've learned so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose76 View Post
You start off saying you "could have done better as a husband." Then you give examples in which you are always the good guy, and your wife is the unappreciative, impossible-to-please spouse. Your gaming occurred during a "slight phase." You try to sound humble, but you rationalize all your behaviors. You missed some prenatal appointments, but only "due to work." (She has no job, and someone has to earn a living.) If you have portrayed her truthfully, then she sounds like a miserable person to live with. (I'm going by the information you've provided.) I have a bad opinion of your wife, based on what you've told us. At some level, I think your wife is aware of this low opinion you hold of her.

Your post consistently portrays you as the victim . . . until the end where you describe your daughter as being a victim also . . . two victims of this unreasonable woman.

If your wife gasn't gone to a lawyer yet, she's still hoping to save the marriage. A woman who seriously wants a divorce doesn't ask her husband how it's going to be "handled." She addresses that with an attorney. She said that to get a rise out of you . . . to tell you how unhappy she is. She was being provocative.

If everything you do "is never enough," then she must be unreasonable.

You both have the same pattern of communication. That's the problem. Neither one of you expresses yourself without becoming defensive. There's a bunch of passive-aggressive stuff going on here.

Quietly go to a lawyer yourself, without telling her. Have the lawyer advise you on what is the best way to preserve your rights and safeguard your interests. Do NOT offer to move out. Stay in that home, so she can't say you abandoned the marriage. Be less defensive. No man wins a woman's respect by trying to stand on his head to please her. When she wants to start an accusatory back and forth, don't take the bait. Say, "I'm glad you told me how you feel." Then clam up. Think of some good traits she has and let her know you recognize her virtues. Say, "I'ld hate to lose a wonderful woman like you." Don't say, "I've tried my best, but you're never satisfied." Good luck. I hope you preserve the family intact. Never say, "I want us to stay together for the sake of our daughter."
I appreciate your response. The second half of your response is extremely useful. As for the first half, I can see how the message comes off... this is partially the issue that can come from this kind of forum. I'm super appreciative of the wife that I have, there are certainly aspects from both sides of the story in which we could have done better. I fess up and take responsibility for any action that brought her to making the choice she has made, but looking back (because i literally have to reflect), she as well didn't hold her end of the bargain either which is simply being supportive of the other person. Given the circumstance, I want her and I to move forward. Not me prove to you I'm worthy so I'll progress for us until you feel the need to try as well(even though divorce means she's done). COMMUNICATION is our issue, as you said in the response. After all the reflection, life would be great if we just had better means of communicating to one another and I feel it's possible if she would be willing to try. Otherwise, it's the co-parenting life... which I clearly don't want but will willingly be for if things come to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molinit View Post
Get an attorney. You should also know that this isn't a flip of a switch decision - she might just be done. Maybe your best isn't enough for her, who knows. You will need an attorney to work out the custody and financial parts.
I've reached out for advice from a legal office. I just stated how I felt during the time. It most likely was thought about for some time, however I would have handled things differently in her position. Guess that is why we're all unique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
Postpartum depression is real and can be awful.

Have you gotten therapy to help you better understand it?
I have just gone through the bits of research from articles and youtube videos at the beginning as it lasted for some time. I supported her in numerous ways but some days my efforts weren't wanted. She's in a better place now from it I believe. In my opinion, she lacks in the self-care department now and any suggestion or help I try and provide she becomes hostile over it but I certainly haven't stopped supporting her.

@Etcetera1 - You're post was just as massive as mine and I truly appreciated her input thorughout all of it. I've given myself one last solid conversation with her to feel out where shes at seeing as it's almost been 2 full months. Determine what her intentions are, and either step forward together or not. It may have been my last straw for her, but I whole-heartedly know that if we both actually put forth the action... better days are there. If not, well then I'll move forward and make better days as well. Thank you again for such a big response!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose76 View Post
There's an old saying that is passed around as advice to husbands: "You can be right . . . or you can be happy."

The O.P. has a choice of what to make as his goal: He can aim at vindicating himself and seeking validation . . . or . . . he can aim at saving his marriage. It's a trade off. You get to pick one. You don't get to pursue both simultaneously. Maybe that's unfair, but that's life. Life is perpetually unfair. We do well to seek out the best outcome we can get. We waste our time and energy, if we seek out an outcome that's just not going to happen.

I take the O.P. at his word - that he'ld really like to save this marriage. (Maybe it's not worth saving. IDK. That's up to him.) I'ld like to see this 2 year old child live in a home with both her mom and dad there with her. I'm in favor of trying to save any marriage where small children are involved, except in cases of one party getting beaten up or repeatedly cheated on. (I said "try," not "stay together no matter what.")

Now I'll say something many will object to: There's probably nothing wrong with being manipulative, if it gets you to where you want to be. That doesn't mean it's okay to act like a sociopath. But, if laying a little sugar on a woman keeps her from running to a divorce lawyer, then go ahead and let the sweet-talkin' flow, if you want the marriage to continue. Ask yourself: "What is my objective, and what will get me to that objective?"

If your objective is to get people to "side with you" or to say, "You're right and she's wrong!" - then keep writing posts like the one starting this thread. Just remember that none of these people is going to warm your bed at night.
I definitely would like to save this, and I feel it's certainly possible if she gives it the chance. I think it'd be a great success story far in the future, but I can only control my side of it, so I will see what plays out over the next coming weeks and just hope for the best... being positive along the way. Thanks Rose!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
It’s not just the post pardon depression. That’s is very real and some women have it worse than others. It’s actually more than that in that a woman begins to see things differently after having a child. There is vulnerability with this and more responsibility and yet also a change in personal freedom as well.

From what you share, she is also a stay home mother and that can isolate her in that she is not engaged in life the same way and is dependent. You on the other hand are involved with interactions and more freedoms than her. I know you think you are tied down and carry financial responsibility, but that is a kind of freedom and power she doesn’t have.

From what you share, her actions are reflecting her attempt to have a sense of power. You see, you have both, a child to adore and distance and freedom separate from that. When you are the main caretaker of a child you are witnessing the very beginnings of self discovery. And at first not only a hormonal change takes place but also a lack of sleep in that a baby demands a lot of attention and a mother sleeps lighter to be aware of her child’s needs. So with that there is a giving up of self. It is a very big change inlifestyle that can bring about some deep insecurities and uncertainties.

It’s a big life adjustment. And it’s different for each of you. Your wife is venting frustration and because you don’t understand it you feel it’s rejection.

What if you heard things differently in when she says you may be happier with someone else it’s not a statement but a question. Your reply of “the next step is divorce” was just as good as saying she is no longer wanted and all that did was fuel a deep fear that even she doesn’t understand.

Your reply should have been more reassuring. Instead you unknowingly fed her fears. A child creates change and new challenges and fears. A couple is required to grow despite this change along with the insecurities that come with it. There is a lot of adjustment when it comes to being a young parent. There are insecurities that arise in each that are completely new and confusing.

This pandemic has added even more stress and fears to an already challenging time in a young couple’s life. Women do go through a lot of hormonal changes when they have a child. It’s a very confusing time in a woman’s life.

The things she is expressing are her fears that even she is confused about. Yes things are different now in that you have moved from being a young couple to learning how to be a family. She is expressing the changes yet she doesn’t really understand how to articulate it. And you are confused about understanding and how to respond. And you sure did throw a hot iron on the fire by uttering the word divorce.
Honestly this post is perfection. and I don't really have anything to say in response. I appreciate you.


@everyone - Things haven't changed... she treats me like a friend, not a best friend. I haven't had the time to talk to her about my feelings recently. It's just been work and self-care/toddler time. I keep trying to "schedule" free time for us to chat, as we don't really have a sitter for our daughter and trusting friends to watch over her at the moment. I can line up a sitter about 2 weeks out but that's pretty far given the topic of discussion. I'm lining up just talking about things throughout an afternoon while the little one is running around. I'm not very hopeful though seeing as when we talk, she keeps her responses super short and if I ask for more she just states that "it's my answer, take it or leave it." It's almost as if she's made her "choice" and refuses to bend or something. I'm not being super pressing I feel either. This happened 3 months ago, and aside from the night she brought it to me... we have talked twice... both from me initiating, and this third will also be from me. Here's to hoping I guess. Thanks everyone for the responses, positive or negative, feedback is always appreciative.
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Default Apr 05, 2022 at 09:28 AM
  #12
@RodneyR how are things going now?
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Default Apr 05, 2022 at 03:51 PM
  #13
Hey Man

I read about your separation and immediately related.
I recently moved out of the family home leaving behind two daughters (5 & 8).
My wife just couldn't cope with me anymore.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but there it is.

I think the fine details of our situations are somewhat different but there were a couple of things which were very familiar.

Please try to keep your head up.
Be honest with yourself, do whatever it takes to feel connected and vital.

Solidarity
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Default Apr 06, 2022 at 05:25 PM
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunch View Post
Hey Man

I read about your separation and immediately related.
I recently moved out of the family home leaving behind two daughters (5 & 8).
My wife just couldn't cope with me anymore.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but there it is.

I think the fine details of our situations are somewhat different but there were a couple of things which were very familiar.

Please try to keep your head up.
Be honest with yourself, do whatever it takes to feel connected and vital.

Solidarity
Hey there, I want to add something after all having read this.

This sounds gaslighty to me: "My wife just couldn't cope with me anymore."

Just the way it's put, it sounds wrong.... Because, you somehow took all the blame. 100% of the blame. When it's usually a 50/50 thing with the responsibility, you know it takes two to tango and so on. She probably did a lot of drama to make you think that in the end. It's completely a nonfactual statement, it's vague, all the facts missing from it and is a dramatic, very guilt-trippy statement. I'm sorry. It was probably a crappy relationship anyway. I wish you the best luck to rebuilding your life and finding a better relationship!!
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Default Apr 06, 2022 at 06:00 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by RodneyR View Post
Apologies for the late response, life has been full of events recently and reading responses would have probably brought even less sleep my way. Hopefully this response posts right.
I didn't want to post more but I'll respond to you. To point out some dangers in the way ahead.

Quote:
That is exactly where my thoughts sit. It feels as a flip of a switch but behind the scenes, she's probably been thinking about this choice of hers for a while. Seeing as the communication I put out about trying to mend things, she has no fold to anything that comes out of my mouth. Lately I've been catching her with responses of "me always trying to control things" so I've determined shes made me out to be a narcassist of the sort and is tailoring her responses to that. To a degree i do have controling aspects but not in the sense shes built me up. I've spent weeks with different online tests, being honest with my self and on a scale, i'm pretty low for narcasissm but i don't know at this point. I'm going to be trying again here when a time in the day isn't so hectic... having that conversation about giving it one hoorah for the sake of our commitment that we made to one another, and also giving our daughter a stable home during this time.
OK so this is the very dangerous part. Very, very dangerous. Stop taking tests and do not allow yourself and your person, your personality to be pathologised. Her calling you a narcissist and controlling is a very self-serving approach. She does not have the right to try and diagnose you in any manner whatsoever, let alone the expertise or knowledge for doing so. Pathologising another person is just not okay and is very selfish and irresponsible. So please forget about all that nonsense, as it's a very low probability at this point that you'd have a personality disorder. Most people do not have a personality disorder....

Just stop listening to whatever she's saying if it's about your person and her ideas about you. It's all going to have gaslighty potential with you trying to focus on her so much and trying to fix everything and feeling rejected by her. It's simply too much stress and emotional risk to have to deal with her distorted ideas on top of that. You are already at the point where you are having self-doubts, about whether you are a narcissist or not.

IMO just chalk it up to incompatibility of some sorts between you two if you want any explanation of her misreading you so much. It's probably best that this relationship is to end. To me all this sounds like this is a lost case. I'm sorry.

Quote:
So the gaming... she deems it as a red flag for sure. I personally keep myself well-rounded and utilize it for self care purposes at times. Granted i don't ignore lifes responsibilities of keeping the house clean, everyone fed.... including our 4 animals. Everything is taken care of, I just could have been more supportive for HER, emotionally and at times physically. I mention this every so often when I see certain things that could have helped her. It's like I'm primed for the coming of the next child as I've learned so much.
This idea that you could have been more supportive of her.....How about your own well-being though?! How about how you are affected by her shenanigans? Why is it always about how SHE is affected by you? Always about how she was or wasn't supported?! You have as much right to your emotional well-being as she does to hers, and just as much right to having support and attention.

You couldn't have been more supportive of her. No. Don't allow yourself to be affected by that sense of "I haven't been good enough for her". Please respect and value yourself above that. Don't let her affect you and bring you down, pull you down into negativity and blame like that.

I don't think you can learn that much here, she's very very far away by now with her perception of things and this relationship is doomed. As soon as pathologising comes up like that, it's pretty much doomed. I've seen enough of this myself, I've seen it with several marriages, I've heard about this enough before.

Quote:
I fess up and take responsibility for any action that brought her to making the choice she has made, but looking back (because i literally have to reflect), she as well didn't hold her end of the bargain either which is simply being supportive of the other person.
Exactly.

Quote:
Given the circumstance, I want her and I to move forward. Not me prove to you I'm worthy so I'll progress for us until you feel the need to try as well(even though divorce means she's done). COMMUNICATION is our issue, as you said in the response. After all the reflection, life would be great if we just had better means of communicating to one another and I feel it's possible if she would be willing to try.
Sorry, I'm going to have to say that communication is the least of the issues here.

And yes, totally understandable that you want the two of you to move forward. However, moving forward in this case looks like having to end the relationship and divorce, unfortunately. She simply distanced so greatly from you by now and she rewrote the past into a negative narrative (e.g. that car drive), and she rewrote her ideas and perception of you into an extremely negative picture.

Please understand that none of this is your fault. She has issues she has the responsibility to deal with but she hasn't done so so far. She may have had a difficult family background or the previous marriage of hers was gone wrong, but she hasn't tried to take responsibility to do everything to heal herself. So instead she's ended up destroying this marriage. This is just unfortunate and it's just life, sometimes it's just what we have to deal with....

Also someone mentioned something above, about her trying to have a sense of power. I don't think this is that. If she was trying to have a sense of power, she would not be pathologising you. The direction she is going in is not a healthy one and she is victimising herself and is not having access to any greater power than before. Unfortunately. But it's not your responsibility to try and fix that.

Quote:
I have just gone through the bits of research from articles and youtube videos at the beginning as it lasted for some time. I supported her in numerous ways but some days my efforts weren't wanted.
Sounds like you've done a lot, way more than most people would bother doing. You've done all the basic responsibilities of educating yourself on the issue, and giving her support in various ways. And if she wanted different ways of support, she should've communicated to you about that, that was her responsibility.

Last but not least, about support: the idea that you would have to take all the outpouring of negative emotion from your wife and all her doubts and insecurities about you, especially if it involves mention of you with another woman, is not realistic. That should not be your responsibility. It should be a therapist's job. For you to have to take it, it would be an extreme burden that no one should expect of you.

Speaking of responsibility again.... Please feel free to relax about your responsibilities and commitment here. She doesn't have any sense of that anymore, so you don't need to either. Only for the kid, I mean, but not towards her, she's basically a stranger at this point.

Quote:
She's in a better place now from it I believe. In my opinion, she lacks in the self-care department now and any suggestion or help I try and provide she becomes hostile over it but I certainly haven't stopped supporting her.
She may be in a better place from that postpartum depression but she doesn't sound like she's done much to heal from her bad past or whatever it is. It may not even be a bad past, it could be many other things, for example maybe it's as simple as she was brought up in a spoiled way. So she quits when she experiences difficulties.

For your own need of closure that you may desire, about what the heck even happened or why or how, I would suggest you reflect on how her previous marriage ended. It may give you clues on how to interpret all the things happening now in this one. If there are any similarities, etc. As there is clearly at least one similarity: her being in two marriages that both ended fast. (I assume the first one ended fast too as she sounded young enough to me with one small kid)


Quote:
everyone - Things haven't changed... she treats me like a friend, not a best friend. I haven't had the time to talk to her about my feelings recently. It's just been work and self-care/toddler time. I keep trying to "schedule" free time for us to chat, as we don't really have a sitter for our daughter and trusting friends to watch over her at the moment. I can line up a sitter about 2 weeks out but that's pretty far given the topic of discussion. I'm lining up just talking about things throughout an afternoon while the little one is running around. I'm not very hopeful though seeing as when we talk, she keeps her responses super short and if I ask for more she just states that "it's my answer, take it or leave it." It's almost as if she's made her "choice" and refuses to bend or something. I'm not being super pressing I feel either. This happened 3 months ago, and aside from the night she brought it to me... we have talked twice... both from me initiating, and this third will also be from me. Here's to hoping I guess. Thanks everyone for the responses, positive or negative, feedback is always appreciative.
Yes she made her choice having rewritten the past and her image of your person into these absurdly negative, biased, distorted things. None of that gets fixed easily or fast and it's very unlikely that it's fixable at all.

All the best luck!!!

Last edited by Etcetera1; Apr 06, 2022 at 06:17 PM..
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Default Apr 13, 2022 at 04:57 PM
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Eyes View Post
@RodneyR how are things going now?
Hey! Yeah, so an update: with the seasons changing, each of us went through a time where we got sick and it postponed any serious talk, and then 4 days ago we officially just talked for an afternoon. There is a lot to share but the jist of it is kind of bleh. She reiterates that she doesn't even want me to touch her, have sex, be intimate or cant stand the thought of it either. As I suspected, she voiced that I was a narcissist and stated that even though tests didn't truly make me out as one, i knew how to answer the questions to make it seem like i'm not. Felt like she is really picking at straws.

I told her I take account for 85% of the problems that lead us to her wanting a divorce, and I feel as though our biggest issues are communication, trust (using our past against one another), and EGOs are what is causing so much conflict over the last year or so.... on top of moving to a new location, dealing with new seasons, COVID, new parents, etc... a laundry list of things that we had to face and could have done better. Now is our opportunity to improve ourselves and go to counseling and use everything to make this better, for our relationship and for our daughter to be in a stable home. She stated that me saying EGOs is a sorry excuse, and is still leaning towards divorce regardless of everything I've said. (I told her I've been speaking to a counselor that I have in work, also scheduled professional counseling in a few months, support forums, and lots of informative videos about bettering ones choices/feelings).

She told me she was already processing the divorce papers (uncontested divorce), I assumed the uncontested part but told her that if shes already doing that, she may want to reconsider because as of now I'm leaning toward contested divorce. (My heart is going to probably let my daughter go with her mom, as she is a wonderful mom and a lot of research states that it's best, however I'm still holding on).

I brought up the counseling again and she said that she would possibly be okay with marriage counseling if it helps us co-parent, and I said I wanted counseling to help our marriage. We nodded our heads to the idea of us going into counseling together, her with the posibility of us improving our marriage... and I with the idea of us seperating and co-parenting that way we both attend counseling and try to be open to it. <---- this paragrapgh however wasn't confirmed, we just spoke on it and she said she would take some time to decide if she wants to cancel her divorce papers that are currently processing.

I'm currently trying to get counseling scheduled for us but we've been hit by a huge snow storm so the local agencies aren't in office at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunch View Post
Hey Man

I read about your separation and immediately related.
I recently moved out of the family home leaving behind two daughters (5 & 8).
My wife just couldn't cope with me anymore.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but there it is.

I think the fine details of our situations are somewhat different but there were a couple of things which were very familiar.

Please try to keep your head up.
Be honest with yourself, do whatever it takes to feel connected and vital.

Solidarity
I apprecaite the response, I know no matter what, I'll make it through this... sort of just favoring the outcome I want to happen of course. As of now, if I do lose my daughter, I know I'll have to make it a point to video chat everyday until I can see her in person which may not be super often seeing as she would be out of state... but all I can do is keep my chin up and be the best parent/role model for her. Thank you for the kind words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etcetera1 View Post

Yes she made her choice having rewritten the past and her image of your person into these absurdly negative, biased, distorted things. None of that gets fixed easily or fast and it's very unlikely that it's fixable at all.

All the best luck!!!

I only quoted the end, but more so for you directly... I have appreciated all of your words and for the most part agree with everything you've said. I certainly believe my wife and I can grow together and get past this point, if shes willing to put in the work and make some adjustments. I have done as much and just wish she could give me that opportunity, and I'm sort of using counseling as that session in which it may help her realize how ridiculous she is being OR help me realize that this just isn't really worth all of this hassle and to chalk it up as a loss (which infuriates me thinking about my daughter going into that scenario). Nonetheless, I'm content with where things are right now, just hoping for the best and making the best of any outcome.
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Default Apr 13, 2022 at 06:54 PM
  #17
Don't take any more tests to try and get evidence that you're an okay person. Stop saying you're 85% to blame for the marital breakdown. Stop denigrating yourself. It's an inauthentic form of humility that keeps failing to placate her. Hold your head up.

This woman is making it clear that she cannot be placated. Stop banging your head against a wall. It just increases her disrespect for you. Stop suggesting counseling/therapy. Your wife loves being the one who was "wronged." This is a sick head game she is playing. Stop playing it with her.

When she talks, listen courteously, but don't keep the conversation going when it's all about how you have been the bad guy. Have more respect for yourself. Don't keep getting baited into these verbal back and forths that serve no good purpose. If she is disinterested in being intimate, then start being just as disinterested yourself. She's not making a good faith effort to resolve anything. When a woman is this cold for this long, she has already checked out of the marriage. She is enjoying tormenting you. If she wants to go, stop begging her to stay.

This will be her 2nd marital failure. Giving up on marriage is becoming a habit with her. Next time she mentions divorce, tell her to do whatever she wants to do. Then walk away. She gets off on these stupid conversations that have gotten circular and go nowhere. Stop taking the bait. Her whining and complaining will just go on forever.

Quietly get legal advice on how to best protect your interests. You need your own attorney. When you start maintaining your own dignity, she might actually take more interest in reconciling. If not, accept what you can't change.

I'm sorry for your daughter. You want her to grow up in an intact family with parents who love her and love each other. If her mom doesn't share that goal, you can't make it happen. It's sad. Sometimes, you have to cut your losses and move on. If your wife can't love you, find a woman who can. Cut the cord first.
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Default Apr 14, 2022 at 02:30 PM
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodneyR View Post
Hey! Yeah, so an update: with the seasons changing, each of us went through a time where we got sick and it postponed any serious talk, and then 4 days ago we officially just talked for an afternoon. There is a lot to share but the jist of it is kind of bleh. She reiterates that she doesn't even want me to touch her, have sex, be intimate or cant stand the thought of it either. As I suspected, she voiced that I was a narcissist and stated that even though tests didn't truly make me out as one, i knew how to answer the questions to make it seem like i'm not. Felt like she is really picking at straws.
I'm sorry. That's really a horrible thing for her to say. These accusations about you. It would make my blood boil if I were in your place. God it's bad.

Quote:
I told her I take account for 85% of the problems that lead us to her wanting a divorce, and I feel as though our biggest issues are communication, trust (using our past against one another), and EGOs are what is causing so much conflict over the last year or so.... on top of moving to a new location, dealing with new seasons, COVID, new parents, etc... a laundry list of things that we had to face and could have done better. Now is our opportunity to improve ourselves and go to counseling and use everything to make this better, for our relationship and for our daughter to be in a stable home. She stated that me saying EGOs is a sorry excuse, and is still leaning towards divorce regardless of everything I've said.
I mean I think you took too much responsibility in response to her accusations and her trying to tear you down with them. It's not cool. I'm sorry again. And where she says that the EGOs is a bull**** excuse, that's also not cool. She isn't at all getting it that it isn't an excuse but an attempt for mutual responsibility-taking which she isn't open to. She sounds VERY self-absorbed.

Quote:
I only quoted the end, but more so for you directly... I have appreciated all of your words and for the most part agree with everything you've said. I certainly believe my wife and I can grow together and get past this point, if shes willing to put in the work and make some adjustments. I have done as much and just wish she could give me that opportunity, and I'm sort of using counseling as that session in which it may help her realize how ridiculous she is being OR help me realize that this just isn't really worth all of this hassle and to chalk it up as a loss (which infuriates me thinking about my daughter going into that scenario). Nonetheless, I'm content with where things are right now, just hoping for the best and making the best of any outcome.
Yes I understand you still believe that. I just hope it won't be a too rude or even traumatic awakening if it ends up not being the way you'd prefer it. The problem is it's a conditional that "if she's willing to put in the work....", it's a hypothetical situation, not real. Does not exist. The reality is very far from this hypothetical situation with her accusing you of being a very very bad character (narcissist lying on tests).

Yes, she's being ridiculous (and worse) but please, I'm with Rose76 on how it's pointless and even harmful and dangerous to engage her on these messed up ideas of hers.

And I agree with her point too that - perhaps seemingly paradoxically - you becoming disinterested and living your own life would be the most helpful. It's how you can keep your own dignity, yes!

Yes, do make the best of any outcome. The best luck to you again.
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Default Apr 14, 2022 at 04:33 PM
  #19
Your very own words:
"Looking back, I could have done better as a husband".
"Apparently the gaming was a little too much (looking back, it was)"
"My dumb self said 'then I guess divorce is next'"
"Looking back, I lacked interest in her and I recognized that"

Now, SHE is the one being ridiculous?! Wow. If your intention is "I'm sort of using counseling as that session in which it may help her realize how ridiculous she is being" then it is better off if you divorced, as was YOUR suggestion in the first place.

What happened to owning your part in it? Of how you were not the best husband, not always there etc. when your wife was carrying your child and struggling with post-partum depression.

Now the narrative has changed - SHE is the one who is demonised and being "ridiculous"?!

At least, whatever you do and whatever issues you have with your wife, please don't drag an innocent child through a rough (contested) divorce. There is no need to traumatise that little girl because of whatever recriminations you now hold against the mother of your child.
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Default Apr 14, 2022 at 04:34 PM
  #20
And for what it's worth narcissists don't typically self-diagnose. They never think the problem is them, it is always others who are at fault.
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