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Blueowl
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Default Oct 21, 2022 at 01:22 PM
  #21
"She admitted it and continued to say they were just friends (...) she doesn't like him like that and he is just a friend who is also going through a divorce."

When I went through my first divorce, one of the counselors I saw recommended I read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Not-Just-Frie...6376186&sr=8-1

It made me realize that sometimes, some people do not intend to hurt someone else but it happens. It was a tough pill to swallow.

My soon to be ex-husband is also leaving the house at odd times, without telling me where he is going. It takes an act of God not to say something. I get it. If it were not because I am financially liable for the house, I would leave just to get away.

The emotions you are going through are normal. You are not alone. Some days are harder/easier than others.
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Default Oct 21, 2022 at 04:08 PM
  #22
Hello mathman,


Your feelings are so completely natural. I have so much sympathy for you. I would find that situation torture. I'm sorry I don't have advice for you on how to move on from that, but I only assume time is all that will help, however hard it is to believe.


I have similar fears. My partner moved out almost immediately. We always talked quite a lot about work, but she always carefully avoided mentioning male colleagues, even though I know she has several. Long ago, she showed signs of not being very loyal. I have no idea whether her leaving me was related to someone else. I even fear that her choice of area to live in is somehow connected to someone else.

She recently said things that were similar to what you describe: That she wants to go and just live alone and be independent. But it might be a lie.


I think we can only focus on this part of what you said, "another part says it doesn't matter and it would only cause more pain."

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. Imagine how much it'd hurt to know everything. By the way, I would personally absolutely assume the worst in that situation, but that's just my pessimistic character. But human nature can be very hard to bear sometimes.


I completely understand this gnawing at you. Sometimes when I feel that way I practice thinking "so what?" about what I'm feeling. So if I'm feeling ferociously jealous and hateful and I'm dispairing, so what? I carry on feeling that way until eventually I just don't anymore. The body and mind will get tired of feeling a certain way eventually.


Perhaps it's worse if you try *not* to feel the way you feel naturally. Maybe trying to escape these terrible feelings will make them worse.
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Default Oct 29, 2022 at 10:12 PM
  #23
I'm sorry for the pain you are going through. The collapse of a marriage that has lasted for years is a sad affair. In this case, your wife has caused you additional pain by her hard-hearted manner. She sounds to me like a selfish person. I base that on her pushing you out of the house, when she should have been the one to leave. It sounds like she doesn't like to be inconvenienced. I'm glad you are back in your house. I'm glad you got a lawyer and that your material interests were protected.

You've handled this well. Right now you are in grief. There is no shortcut through that. Two years ago, I lost the man I had loved for years to cancer. For a while I didn't even want to live. I'm here to tell you that time does heal. Now I can look at pictures of him and smile. You may never get to where remembering her will make you smile, but you can recover from the sense of loss you feel now. First of all, you've been getting by without her love for a long time already . . . for years. All you had was an illusion, but you took some comfort in that. Her presence in the home did provide some modicum of companionship, which is gone. Living alone can be tough. I'm glad you have family and friends that really seem to be there for you. Keep spending time with others. I like your idea of a Christmas vacation, if that won't feel too lonesome to you.

The big challenge you're struggling with now is your concern about her involvement with this male co-worker. You wonder when it started and what she finds so attractive in him. When there are things we don't know, we tend to fill in the blanks with stuff from our imagination. You imagine the two of them having all this joy together that you wish was yours. You have to stop that. They don't know each other yet. Not really. I don't care if they've been co-workers for 20 years. He sees what she lets him see. A woman who's done what she's done, in the way she's done it, is a pretty cold fish. You need not envy any man who gets involved with her. Her not loving you is not about you not being lovable enough. I think it's about her not being a very loving person. She can create an illusion, but that doesn't last. In years to come you'll catch wind of how her approach to life works out. She's got some serious problems ahead.

Meanwhile, you're free of being stuck in what became a farce of a marriage. How interesting that she'ld been hoping you'ld be the one to leave. She's been a conniver. That's why I say her approach to life is disturbed and going to lead to problems. You sound like a decent guy who gives a lot. There are women out there who'ld like to meet you.

Don't rush into another relationship, but be available to that possibility. I understand you missing the two dogs. Maybe get another dog who is all yours. Maybe get two. (So each has a companion when you're not home.) You only have to get through one day at a time. Don't entertain thoughts about her and this other guy. Live your life. Potentially, your best days may be ahead of you.
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Default Oct 30, 2022 at 09:44 AM
  #24
@mathan92 if you don’t mind my asking? How old are you?
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Default Nov 01, 2022 at 01:15 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by 2ndDivorce View Post
I feel for you. I was devastated during the demise of my first marriage - I had plans for the future that never materialized, like you, having a family. And now that I am going through a second divorce, I see it is for the best.

What I am doing is keeping busy with work (distraction), reading books I wanted to read but did not get to because I was the responsible party in this ending marriage, and am thinking about living a life without someone who is judging me every day and holds on to every word to just throw it right back at me.

I signed up for Meet Up groups in my area to do things I want to. I did not get to it yet, but I am going to sign myself up for cooking classes.

There is this group for women who do not have children - although I have not seen any men in there, I would presume they would welcome a male perspective - Watch the #NomoCrones as we discuss 'Childless vs. Childfree: Does Age Soften this Distinction?' [Recording now available] - Gateway Women

I really think that, for the most part, men and women going through these life changing events are the same (?). I am much, much better now, but the 6 weeks after going to a fertility clinic and realizing that the man I was married to would never support me... that threw me for a loop.

To be honest... the man I loved was my first husband... but after many deployments and him meeting other people... well... I was all too familiar for him.

I have met many people who have gone through similar situations as me and at first, I was flabbergasted by how similar (almost identical) the situations were as they related to mine. You are not alone!! As time passes, it may get better. Do I still thinking of my first husband every day? You bet. Some people (including relatives) thought I was an idiot for trying to stick it out. But you know what? I have no regrets in that I tried because that is what I wanted. But I had to let go...

I am considering looking for jobs in other parts of the country, changing careers, etc... The world is my oyster. I am psyching myself up to see opportunities as a single person. Many of my life dreams will go unrealized. But, perhaps, others I had never imagined will happen. Betty White was married three times!

I am so sorry about your situation. Sending you a virtual hug!!!

I really like your spirit.

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Default Nov 02, 2022 at 07:13 AM
  #26
As I started reading this thread, I immediately saw something that caught my eye... Her out-of-left-field resolve to leave you. The second I read that, I thought there's a third party in this and he doesn't know it. As I got to the bottom of the first page, sure enough that hidden entity was revealed. In my life experience, a person who cuts off communication with you is not sitting in a corner alone. They have moved that communication to someone else.

I admire your determination to get to the heart of the problem. It shows your dedication to the union and your vows. You have integrity. Her resistance to find a solution and this odd openness to just tell you she has no feelings , (to me) looks like a person trying to persuade you to take the action she didn't want to do herself. In other words, she tried to get you to be the "bad guy" in this and ask for the divorce, so she could appear justified in whatever she harbored.

So when you didn't budge, she played it out for as long as she could and then took the action she did. When you agreed to the separation, her new attitude and this apparent release and embrace of a new life looked off to you. It should look off because that shows she had been planning it.

I've always found it fascinating how a person who says they're 'confused' can have incredible clarity when they look at the exit sign. Clearly she had painted a picture of you to this other person so he would tell her what she wanted to hear. As others have said, it was all about controlling the narrative.

As much as you hurt, I would consider yourself lucky that she made a clean break and was not more vindictive. She did not deserve you, because she didn't respect you enough to say the things she could to a complete stranger outside the marriage. That's cowardly. When two parties want a bond to work they keep it between themselves. When one of them wants to make a break, that's when they bring in outsiders. My deepest sympathy to you, but you are better off without her.

Do not waste your energy over resentment for this other person though. That was her choice and she owns that. It also shows it needed to be over sooner. There was nothing to save here because her mind was already made up. She just brought someone else in to help cross that bridge. Very selfish.
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Default Nov 02, 2022 at 12:39 PM
  #27
Thank you all for the support. It truly means a lot to me. I am never disappointed when I read all of the comments. I really appreciate the support.

@Open Eyes I am 30 years old.

I had my court date on the 31st of October and now it is all over and my divorce is finalized. It was hard to go there and see her again. I made the decision before I got there, to not look at her. It still hurts so much to see her. I still find her very attractive and seeing her brings back so many feelings. We had a few minutes alone in the court room and we did chat a little bit. Asked each other how we were doing, laughed a little bit, and everything went better than what I thought it would.

I am glad it is over but now I just feel empty. The past couple days I have had no emotions at all. I just feel numb and empty. I realize it is not her I miss, but the connection I had with her. I had someone the other day tell me that I have faults as well and all I do is talk about her faults. I know I have faults. I know I was not perfect in this marriage but at least I was always vocal about what I wanted and needed. I always tried to talk to her when we would have issues and it was very rare that she would ever talk about how she felt and what she wanted. I remember very well a car ride we took to have a chat. We spent an hour driving around and I just opened up about so much. How I was feeling in the marriage. How I felt she didnt love me anymore. She barely said two words during the whole car ride until we got back home. All she could say was, "You deserve to be with someone else. I cannot give you all the things you want and need and it isnt fair to either one of us. You should not be with me. You should be with someone else". This incident was just last year. Now here we are divorce a year later with her saying the same words to me.

I feel there is nothing else anyone can do to help me through this situation. There is nothing anyone can say that is going to make the pain go away. Everyone just keeps telling me time will heal. I know this is true but I am so tired of feeling miserable everyday and it is just hard to forget all the pain she has caused me.

Reading through everyone's comments really helps bring light to the situation. I still continue to try and find answers to all of her decisions and I still have such feelings of care and compassion for her. I wish I could be more angry with her but I just dont feel like I can do that. I dont know if I was blind to it during the marriage or what but I do see her as a selfish person now. I dont remember her being a selfish person during the marriage until recently. It felt like she flipped a switch and suddenly she was this new person. I do not even recognize her anymore. Her personality has changed so much. I am so glad it is over but why does it still have to hurt so much.

It hurts to think of her with anyone else and I do try to tell myself that it will never work out between them either because she isnt going to change. I am trying to remove the fantasy of this marriage I never had from my mind. I planned my entire life around this woman. Bought a house so we could have kids together. We worked to get ourselves out of debt. All we had was our mortgage. Kids was the next step and she backed out. I keep ruminating about what I wanted my life to look like in the future with her. It is hard to remove myself from this fantasy.
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Default Nov 02, 2022 at 11:25 PM
  #28
This relationship began when you were both very young. It’s understandable that you have hurt and confused feelings. Also it does take time to sort through these different emotions that surface.

It sounds like your ex was not happy and genuinely desires to be on her own. It’s really not good to go from living with parents to then living with a partner. We should have time to learn to live independent and on our own. A person grows and matures and changes so much during their 20’s. So by age thirty a person looks at a lot of things differently.

At age 30 you are still young enough to consider more education, having some freedom for a few years before finding a partner to have a family with if that is something you want in your life.

You should have a partner you can enjoy intimacy with and who can appreciate you as a person.
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Default Nov 03, 2022 at 07:43 AM
  #29
Open eyes is absolutely correct. I didn't get married until I was in my 30's and I've been with my wife 26 years with kids and a grandchild. We both agreed had we met when we were younger it probably wouldn't have worked. We needed that life experience to know not only what we actually needed as individuals, but what we didn't need. The idea of being together with someone is what we both chased when we were young. By the time we met, we were both sick with experience, were not looking for a partner, and had a low BS tolerance meter that couldn't be eclipsed. In short we got real honest with ourselves and that meant our conversations were never (and have never been) one-sided where someone walks off in a corner not talking.

Relationships under the most ideal circumstances are still hard because you've got to balance your identity with theirs and always search for that compromise that doesn't erase you or what it is they need. People evolve and communication is vital during those moments. Your nearly half my age so its easy for me to say you're young, but I do know what 30 looks like, not having anyone but still having the dreams. Do yourself a big favor. Don't waste your time on woulda, coulda, shoulda scenarios, because the one thing I found in my life experience is mistakes are baked in to ALL relationships. You're a human being and relationships are anything but perfect races. So looking for the "moment" is a meritless search because if you take that off the table, they would find something else. People who want to be in a relationship, STAY in a relationship. Please don't blame yourself. The reason time is important in these matters is because as your emotions mend, your perspective gains clarity and you can see everything for what it was without your feelings blurring the picture. I wish you well.
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Default Dec 19, 2022 at 08:21 AM
  #30
Hello, a lot of what you are going through I am also now experiencing. I'm on my 2nd marriage. First one lasted two months and she cheated on me. It sucked but we were together 3 years total, no kids so clean break. I immediately went back to dating and about a year later after lots and lots of dates I found my wife of 11 years 14 hrs together 2 beautiful children a 9year old girl and 5 year old boy. She was everything I wanted in a partner we texted every day when we went to work said I love you, kissed, held hands, had sex regularly showered together. With the birth of my daughter we were not prepared for the strain, we had a crib a baby monitor but instead my wife was nursing found it easier for her sanity and mine to sleep in the other room. Not being selfish I understood completely, this continued we still had sex just less frequent and my son was born 3 1/2 years later same thing my daughter transitioned to her own room but my wife stayed sleeping in the other room. With two kids less time for ourselves and during this time she had her thyroid removed as well. In short I was dying wanting to be close to her but I thought I just need to tough it out. Plus I'd be such a jerk to demand things when she is taking care of kids etc. I remember texting her and ending every text with each other xoxo. I know it's small but the day she didn't respond with that my heart broke. It was just a growing sign of her pulling back. With my first wife I aggressively tried to do counseling and save the marriage but I think she was done and that just pushed her away. I was having sex maybe 3 or 4 times a year and it was all me initiating it. She never once in at least 8 years asked to be close. We stopped kissing holding hands. This year I became desperate to try and rekindle something. My son should be close to sleeping on his own and I can finally get my wife back! How optimistic I am and foolish. I tried introducing sex toys, even asking her what her fantasies were. She told me she wanted to see me with another woman. She wouldn't be involved just me and the other woman. I was shocked I didn't really want that, I wanted her but I kept asking when we were intimate if she was really serious and not just harmless fantasy sharing. She said no she was then she said my homework was to find another girl to have sex with and she would set up the motel room etc. She said she wouldn't have sex with me until that happened. This is last week. So I was joining every dating site to hook up so I could please my wife. Well online dating sucks I got married to settle down but last night I got a hook up chat a d told my wife that someone wanted to hook up now. She said ok have fun. Showed her a Pic she said she is cute. It was a 10 min drive and I was nervous. Never would of thought this would be happening. I get there and the girl ghosted me. So I texted my wife she laughed at me and was home. On the way back I asked if we could have a quickie hoping just driving to hook up might of got her in the mood. Got the tired and cranky excuse. She told me to video chat with some girl. Then she called a mutual Freind and I heard her complaining about our relationship and how we don't hold hands or kiss. How she needs to stay away from Geminis laughing. It hurt me so much. All that I was doing and enduring for her trying to et her back. I said we need to talk and I told her I never wanted to be hooking up I wanted her. I'm crying pleading to save our marriage and she just is emotionless. Said she shuts down because she doesn't want a fight. Said she knew she wasn't giving me what I needed so she wanted me to get it somewhere. The real red flag was there seemed to be zero desire to work on it to rekindle anything. I said let's do marriage counseling she said she wants us to go individually but seemed hesitant. Told me to talk to the mutual Freind about it. I told her I wanted to talk to her a bout it. I'm not so optimistic to see the writing. On the wall my marriage is ending right before holidays and it probably already was gone but I'm heading off the cliff emotionally and can't do anything to stop this. She is a wonderful mother and despite the hurt and lack of emotion I love her fully. I don't think about other girls I think about my wife. I have not slept in the same bed for almost 10 years. Can. We come back from this, I don't k ow what to do. My support network is just my family never had close Freinds even growing up all my eggs were in my wife's basket and she is tossing it away. I said I feel like this is heading for divorce and she didn't respond one way or the other. I didn't mean to write all this but hearing your pain it was like a mirror, you are where I am going to be just with kids involved. How can I go to family holiday gatherings and act like I'm OK? How do I sheikd my kids from this. I'm not mad at her just sad. I want her to be happy and I'm just not the love of her life. I should of spoke up instead of trusting that she was doing what was best for us and our family. I already know this will hurt me more than her, I'm invested she checked out. She said she isn't interested in anyone else she is just emotionally numb. I told her she is asexual for sure. Doesn't crave sex talk about it. She has not cheated on me, she just reads all the time romance novels. That is her free time not trying to ask me about my day etc. I know deep down I deserve more but I will go down trying to save the ship. That's just who I am. I need to get in support groups and just try to get a hobby meet new people. I just don't know how I can do this. I need help and this thread just sole to me. To know I'm not alone, I have tears as I write this in bed alone.

Last edited by bluekoi; Dec 19, 2022 at 12:39 PM..
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Default Jan 24, 2023 at 02:56 AM
  #31
I will try to keep this short. Just looking for anything that can help me. Its been awhile since I've been on the forum. Still working through a lot. Still having struggles. Thought I would make a update post and see what insight everyone has.

I am finally in no contact. It has been almost three months of no contact and it has been a real rollercoaster especially with the holidays. Our last conversation was not a good one. I was on my way to a friends house right before Thanksgiving and to get there I had to drive by her new "friends" house. I seen her car sitting there and I was just overwhelmed with so much emotion. Got her on the phone and had a few choice words with her and that was the last I spoke to her. I tried so hard to keep things amicable between us but her hanging around with this guy has really made everything too difficult.

I have blocked and cut out her and her entire family. Figured it was for the best. I've not spoken to any of them since that day. Its hard to cut out everyone when they didn't have anything to do with this and felt bad for me but its her family and it always just brought back too many memories to be in touch with them.

Ive had several episodes since then of emotional breakdowns. Still a lot of anger, resentment, and jealousy. Im trying so hard to let it all go. I know I need to forgive her and move on but its a real challenge for me. Ive had no answers as to what I have done to cause her to not want to be with me or love me. She has stated from the start that I was a great husband to her and she just fell out of love for some reason. I dont know why it is so hard for me to comprehend this.

I am constantly thinking about her. Everything reminds me of her. Im scared to leave my house at times because theres always a high chance I could run into her. Seen her driving just the other day. She was headed down the same road her new guy friend lives on and it set me off. Overcome with so much anger and hurt. She could have been going anywhere but my mind instantly goes to her going to see him. I feel like she is experiencing so much joy with her new life and it hurts to think of her having joy without me. I catch myself wishing I could see her struggle. I dont want anything bad to happen to her but I just wish I knew if she was ever missing what we had or is wondering whether she made the right decision.

I believe there is nothing anyone can do to help me anymore. I feel as though I am doing everything I possible can to overcome this but I am still struggling. I started school a couple weeks ago, been going to the gym 3-5 days a week, got myself my own dog, trying harder to practice mindfulness. Anything I can do to overcome this I am doing it. I have a lot of good things going for me. I just wish I could take care of all of the rumination and intrusive thoughts.

My therapist said I need to stop grieving this fantasy of a marriage and grieve what was real. I have a bad habit of dwelling on what my wife wasnt and what I wanted my marriage to be like. A marriage full of love, intimacy, communication, and just time with her. Ive been pushed away for so long its hard to know what that feels like. I find myself questioning why she couldnt love me the way I loved her and why she couldnt communicate how she was feeling with me. I cant even remember the last time I felt close to my ex. With each passing day I find it harder to remember many things of the past. I guess that is a good thing.

Guess that is all for now. I feel like I could type forever about this. Im just trying my best to hang in there. I know the worst is over and apparently it is all up to time now.
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Default Jan 24, 2023 at 04:30 AM
  #32
@mathman92 I am sorry to learn you are still struggling so much. In rereading what you wrote about your ex I don’t think she is able to love the way you want. Some people simply don’t have that ability in them no matter who they are with.

You have given her way too much power over you and given what you shared she is probably unaffected and may be that way with others.
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Default Jan 25, 2023 at 07:02 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mathman92 View Post
Thank you all again for the advice and help. It is all very much appreciated. This is my first divorce and I am doing everything I can to get through it. I've started going back to the gym, biking, hiking, counseling, journaling, talking/hanging out with so many friends. All I can do now is keep working on myself and in time I will eventually feel better.

..................These are all good things to be doing to help keep your thoughts and mind off of her. As far as what your going to do in the future , you'll make those decisions when the time arises. You will survive this.......one day at a time.

I truly feel like I am making progress but it is slow and everyday is a new challenge. I never know what the day is going to be like with my mood swings and my emotions going from sadness/loneliness to frustration/anger. First I'm thinking about how much I miss her and regret losing my temper in front of her and scaring her. The next moment I'm thinking of all of the resentment I've been feeling towards her and I am glad I got angry and glad she seen how much she is hurting me. It is so difficult to control my emotions and remove the bad thoughts from my head.
..........................This is the part that is concerning. You do NOT , under any circumstances want to let your emotions get the better of you. She is just waiting for you to lose it so she can call the cops and can get you in LOTS of trouble. Even if it's all a lie. Women hold all the cards with the courts. You'll just wind up in jail and paying all kinds of fines. Don't fall into that trap. Maintain no contact as much as feasibly possible.
Best of luck to you .....

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Default Jan 28, 2023 at 02:12 PM
  #34
"Just looking for anything that can help me...

I have blocked and cut out her and her entire family. Figured it was for the best. I've not spoken to any of them since that day. Its hard to cut out everyone when they didn't have anything to do with this and felt bad for me but its her family and it always just brought back too many memories to be in touch with them."


I did the same after my first divorce, although today (almost 10 years later) I find them in social media. I'm at the point where I am curious and no longer sad. Give yourself time - some get over these things quickly and for others it takes longer. Everyone has their own timeline.


"Ive had several episodes since then of emotional breakdowns. Still a lot of anger, resentment, and jealousy. Im trying so hard to let it all go. I know I need to forgive her and move on but it's a real challenge for me. Ive had no answers as to what I have done to cause her to not want to be with me or love me. She has stated from the start that I was a great husband to her and she just fell out of love for some reason. I dont know why it is so hard for me to comprehend this."


Hard pill to swallow, but maybe, with time, you'll also come to realize that this relationship would not materialize into what you were expecting.

"Im scared to leave my house at times because theres always a high chance I could run into her."


What is the worst thing that could happen if you do run into her? Are you afraid that you may have an emotional episode? Consider this... maybe move far away so that you won't run into her? I don't think you are over her - yet. Treat her well if/when you see her; treat her without reproach. Show her what she's missing! Don't get angry if/when you see her because all you'll be doing is validating her decision to move on.


"I believe there is nothing anyone can do to help me anymore. I feel as though I am doing everything I possible can to overcome this but I am still struggling. I started school a couple weeks ago, been going to the gym 3-5 days a week, got myself my own dog, trying harder to practice mindfulness. Anything I can do to overcome this I am doing it. I have a lot of good things going for me. I just wish I could take care of all of the rumination and intrusive thoughts."


You are on the right track and doing things that are healthy - not drugs, not alcohol, not unprotected sex... You should commend yourself for this! Give yourself a pat on the pack. Treat yourself better; change how you talk to yourself. Easier said than done.

"My therapist said I need to stop grieving this fantasy of a marriage and grieve what was real. I have a bad habit of dwelling on what my wife wasnt and what I wanted my marriage to be like. A marriage full of love, intimacy, communication, and just time with her. Ive been pushed away for so long it's hard to know what that feels like. I find myself questioning why she couldnt love me the way I loved her and why she couldnt communicate how she was feeling with me. I cant even remember the last time I felt close to my ex. With each passing day I find it harder to remember many things of the past. I guess that is a good thing."

The first therapist I saw told me to hit the bar scene (?). That is not my thing. Maybe you should consider looking for a different therapist if this is not working for you.

This video has helped in my current (still pending) divorce: Don?t Invest in Someone Based on THIS - YouTube

I think you like her more than she likes you. Same with my first husband. It took me 4 years of separation before I filed because I realized his heart was not in it anymore. Don't beat yourself over this. Many people struggle with the same issues but these are venues where we can safely vent our frustrations and realize that, regrettably, this is part of life that one tells you or prepares you for.

I've come to realize that when a relationship ends, especially marriage, there is so much bias and judgement. But, think of this... if you are in a job you don't like... what do people say? To move on and get another job. No one tells you to make it work or feel bad because you feel professionally unfulfilled. How many different jobs, on average, does the average working person have? I bet they change jobs every 2-3 years.

My brother is in his third long-term relationship - never married. Been with the current partner for over 20 years. Technically, he's ahead of me because I have only had 2 - but both were marriages. But, because he never married, there is no stigma.

The only piece of unsolicited advice I have for you is to look for healthy distractions. Think of things you love to do and start doing them - for you.
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Thanks for this!
sadmanagain
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